The newest episode of Star Trek: Discovery — “The Butcher’s Knife Cares Not for the Lamb’s Cry” — has just debuted, and we’re sure you’re ready to dive into a discussion on all the events that just took place.

Here’s your place to take on all the new Trek lore this episode brought us, with no restrictions on spoilers. If you haven’t yet watched the episode, that’s your last warning!

This thread will remain open until our episode review is posted, later this week.

  • DavidDesjardins

    Primary Hull is part of the propulsion system. [check]
    It spins. Subtle Stargate reference. [check]
    The tartigrade ‘Ripper’ is intelligent. Navigates like a TOS Medusean [check]
    People die. People lie. [check]
    Guilt from her former Captain about doing whats right for the people you protect. [check]
    Klingons are in for a surprise [check]

    • Shane Nokes

      Why are you making a check list exactly? No one is reading your lame posts.

  • Rykk Bruce

    Is anyone else getting nothing but choppy video with all access?

    • Brian Thorn

      Mine was normal.

    • Mine was smooth and uneventful, no problems at all.

    • Nope, mine was smooth

    • SpaceCadet

      Mine was fine. I was watching another program on All Access earlier in the day though and sometimes the video went blurry for a few seconds perhaps because it was buffering.

    • Rykk Bruce

      Must be the PlayStation app then. I’ll try another device and see if that fixes the frustration.

    • Shane Nokes

      Yes, and no way would I ever pay for it. I encourage everyone to just pirate the crap out of this show.

    • The Science Fiction Oracle

      Yes, all access is a big rip off.

    • Dan Martin

      Yes, I had trouble watching at around 8:40 PM EST on my Roku. I had no issue in previous weeks. Figuring that CBS AA couldn’t handle the burden of everyone watching “live”, I just watched something else for an hour. Then it was fine.

    • Partha Mittra

      Picture stopped because of buffering. When I watch the episodes outside of the Sunday stream it works fine.

    • Alan Light

      On a firestick, I’ve had not one single issue with AA…

  • Snap

    So, the ship can plunge into a star and not only still survive but the people inside don’t even notice a change in temperature? That’s the biggest piece of BS from the series so far. Overall, I think it was a good episode and, finally, with a bit of the Trek we all know concerning the nature of the creature.

    Given that we have seen a picture of Burnham with a new rank insignia, I think we can infer what the general outcome of her success will be.

    My overall feeling of the series has improved somewhat, thumb at NW and, despite the total BS of the scene with the star, I give the episode a thumbs up..

    • Brian Thorn

      Unless that star was about 1,000 miles across, they did not “plunge” into it. They were still very high above it.

    • Waykent
      • Snap

        Wrong era. This is supposed to be 100 years prior. The tech didn’t exist.

        • Partha Mittra

          How did we know the tech did not exist? Klingons had it in Redemption Ep II. Plus we don’t know what other advanced technology the Discovery has, in addition to its Quantum Drive

          • Snap

            The Klingons didn’t enter the star itself. Go watch any of those episodes and you will see the closest they got is to the corona.

          • Partha Mittra

            Right but the Discovery did not enter the star , they only got close to its surface

          • Snap

            Were you watching the same episode, the ship vanished into the star and then came out. In Remeption and Descent, the plasma from the star destroyed the Klingon and Borg ships respectively.

          • Partha Mittra

            I was. Other commentators have said that they were above the star not in it. Are they all wrong?

          • Snap

            I will watch the replay the confirm. If I am mistaken, I will own up to it.

          • Its scale man. A G class star is HUGE, for the scale we saw on the screen to work, they had to be a long way away. The issue is the suns gravity, which will pull them in so close they can not get out.

          • Snap

            It was an O-type star (double checked the dialogue) but, yes, they are massive, a G-type star is the same type of star as our sun. I also DID say I would rewatch the scene in question and own up to my error. They were extremely close to the star but, no ,I was in error and they did not enter. However, if we’re going to bring science into the equation, O-type stars are hot, blue-white stars not the generic orange seen in the episode.

          • It was how it looked on screen, its an easy error and lets be honest, sci-fi does silly stuff like this often. And I agree, that was an opssy on either script or the FX guys

          • It did not even get close unless that star is smaller than earth

        • Waykent
          • Snap

            again, they DID NOT enter the star, they used the gravity of the star to perform the maneuver.

          • Waykent

            But how close did they get?

          • Shane Nokes

            Not very close at all. Don’t waste your time.

        • Shane Nokes

          Actually, factually you are wrong about this assertion.

        • JP

          hahaha “that tech didn’t exist” – what show have you been watching??

    • Common in trek.

      • Snap

        You’ll have to be more specific. A starship has never entered a star an survived, the transphasic shielding developed in TNG (future tech from this era) allowed the ship to survive within a star’s corona, not the sphere of the star itself. If you have any specific examples to back up the claim, please feel free to share them.

        • Partha Mittra

          Yes but you don’t know if the transphasic shielding was the only time people could do this. Maybe ,like the Quantum Warp Drive, this was technology that was developed in this era but could not be used later on.

          • Snap

            We don’t know that these uniforms will change into the TOS uniforms. It’s as valid an argument as the one you’re making. Negative evidence is not supporting evidence, it is the absence of proof.

        • The Star was not close, no where near close. If it is the same size as Sol, they were whole AU’s away from it.

      • Shane Nokes

        In nu Trek perhaps. Not real Star Trek 1966 – 2005. RIP

        • Watch some trek son. Heck TNG did this really stupid thing where the ship lost power and people starting suffocating at once.

          • Shane Nokes

            I have watched every single episode of every show multiple times.

          • Yet, you missed this stuff?

          • Shane Nokes

            I didn’t miss anything. You just love the new Klingons so much you are blind.

          • mr joyce

            another troll account, ignore shane nokes

          • The troll is back and Mimicking “The Science Fiction Oracle”

          • mr joyce

            blocked the impostor too

          • As did I, after I reported him and informed Oracle.

  • Partha Mittra

    At first the pace seemed very slow. I thought this would be ‘Discovery saves the colonists’ episode. Boy was I wrong. I loved how Burnham actually tried to understand the creature rather then dismember it. I liked how only by understanding the creature could they achieve their ends. I liked how Burnham was repelled at how the Ripper responded with pain when tied up to that system, it seems like the Ripper offers up a sort of a mirror to Burnham. Both seen as hostile and dangerous but really something else. The ending with Captain Georgiou made my wife tear up and I was genuinely moved.

    For those who insist this is not Star Trek I would use this episode as a counterpoint. This crew may be war-bound and cruel but the fact that Burnham saw more is like idealism shining in the darkness. It may be dark now but there may be seeds for something greater,something like optimistic and empathetic world of Star Trek.

    • Shane Nokes

      “seeds” yeah right more like you are an apologist trying to defend this terrible Star Trek show.

  • Frank Pepito

    I enjoyed this episode a lot more that last week’s! Referencing the tardigrade was not only very Star Trek, but also seeing Burnham’s empathy to it towards the end of the episode. That’s the kind of stuff I was hoping to see in this new Trek, so I’m a happy camper about this episode. There are still some lingering questions, obviously how they reconcile the new transportation system to Kirk’s era and beyond. But I’m good with seeing how they play that in future episodes.

    • SpaceCadet

      I predict they reconcile this new transportation system with canon by classifying this project once or even before the war is complete and also that it’s unreliable or just not ethically sound because they’re causing harm to an alien everytime they use it.

      • Frank Pepito

        That’s a great reason. However, I forget which site posted it, but they speculated that this ship and crew may be the origin of Section 31. And they made great arguments, including the ship’s registry number which they acknowledged might actually be too on-the-nose. But tonight, I noticed that when they successfully reached the mining station, they were in and out and left the survivors with a mystery as to who rescued them…just like Section 31 might do. Now, I like your theory a lot, and do agree that, somehow, they’ll be forced to discontinue it eventually. I’d like to think by something this season, but we’ll see.

        • SpaceCadet

          Wasn’t Section 31 already established by the time of Star Trek: Enterprise and the armory officer guy did work for them?

          • Frank Pepito

            I didn’t give ENT a lotta love during it’s run, until season four anyway. So I don’t know. It’s possible.

          • SpaceCadet

            We see Section 31 involved in the two parter in season 4 of ENT that was about the Klingons losing their cranial ridges and looking more like the Klingons of TOS. So essentially Section 31 was already around in the early days of Starfleet.

          • M33

            Anyone remember Michael?
            You know, the one who kept insisting S31 was inherent to this series?

          • Frank Pepito

            Thanks for that reminder. Love that story arc! Guess I forgot about that detail over the cleverness of reconciling the Klingon look! Hmm… Now I wonder if Discovery really is connected to it or not. Guess we’ll see.

        • Husnock

          This episode would also explain how S31 could operate so secret, that no one ever heard of it. They can go anywhere they please in an instant. Add cloaking tech (which S31 probably has in the DS9 era) and you’ve got one bad-ass intelligence service…

    • Something is gonna go wrong, really it only works because of an unknown critter they are tormenting to make work and it is likely killing it.

      • Eric Watson

        It has to be that. Maybe it works, but enslaving a lifeform to do it isn’t something Starfleet cannot stand behind in the end? Or there is some downside not yet shown?

        • I think “works” may be a bit much. It likely is gonna do bad, bad things.

    • If the new transportation system is only navigable if you enslave a sentient creature, then it’s clearly too ethically problematic to actually use. I imagine Burnham and Lorca will be butting heads about this very issue in an episode or two…

  • This reminded me SO much of “The Devil in the Dark,” in the best possible way. Understanding is more important than weapons. Even if what you want to do is kill Klingons, understanding is still more important than weapons.

    That’s a message that’s real Star Trek. Tonight was the first episode that truly felt like Trek to me, but boy, did it ever! Thanks so much, Discovery team, for giving me an episode that was so Trekkian that it made me tear up a little. 🙂

    • SpaceCadet

      Good comparison to that episode but another one I see an apt comparison to is the “Equinox” two-parter on VOY in which you have an ethically compromised Starfleet crew utilizing a breakthrough way to travel through space at the cost of hurting/killing an alien species.

    • Eric Watson

      I didn’t think of that, but it totally makes sense. A misunderstood intelegent “creature” acting in defense. Good catch.

  • Eric Watson

    I got a Starship Enterprise pizza cutter as a gift a few years ago. The saucer section was the blade. That was my first thought as the Discovery saucer rotated.

    • The Science Fiction Oracle

      Cool story… nobody cares, bro.

  • I liked it. I did not expect some of the turns there and we learned a few new and interesting things.

    • Waykent

      They ate her.

      • Yeah…… Starving fanatics are scary

      • Mark of Cain

        Why haven’t you banned New Hampshire Bound?

        • Waykent

          I have not because they have been banned for months according to them.

          • Mark of Cain

            You do know he’s a Holocaust denier, right?

          • Waykent

            I am aware of that. However, he is banned from the only community I moderate. I cannot do anything else. I do not wish to sound rude, but this discussion is supposed to be about the episode.

          • Shane Nokes

            Well, you are being rude. So knock it off or I will report you to the mods.

  • GIBBS v2

    Another solid episode!

    So impressed and excited about the series as a whole. It looks to be holding that standard of excellence sky high.

    • I agree, it was solid

      • Shane Nokes

        I disagree it was total garbage.

        • If ya disliked, you disliked. Some folks think TOS is a good show for instance 😀

          • Shane Nokes

            Well, some folks are wrong!

          • I know, LOL

          • Partha Mittra

            Wrong about an opinion? I don’t think so

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one.

          • Partha Mittra

            What wit! Noel Coward would be quivering.

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            Your mom is probably quivering after what we did together last night.

          • Partha Mittra

            Well she is dead. So you are having sex with corpses?

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            Oh, yeah of course I am necrophilia is an amazing hobby around Halloween time.

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            Dude, you do realize that shannon is going to defend every aspect of STD forever, right?

    • The Science Fiction Oracle

      Nope, was not as real as my autographed picture of Gene Roddenberry. I really find this entire new series quite offensive.

  • SpaceCadet

    Thoughts:

    Enjoyable. Feels more like Star Trek. Also feels like more contemporary serialized television in that there is no problem offing main characters, in the case of this episode: Landry. Speaking of Landry, she acted incredibly stupid and hard to believe she ever rose up the ranks to chief of security or even lived as long as she did. But she wasn’t very likeable so I don’t think too many people will miss her except from a real world standpoint it does suck to have one less POC and female on the show. It was also stupid of Tilly to be in the room when the Tardigrade was released from containment and stupid of Burnham for allowing her to stay. Nice to see Stamet’s partner but from their one scene you wouldn’t know they are a couple, just that they’re familiar with each other. Special effects and production values were astonishing as usual. Interesting to see the Discovery’s saucer rotate in order to “fly”. I knew Kol had betrayal up his sleeve. Nice deepening of the characterization of Voq and L’Rell and their developing relationship. I think Lt. Tyler is the last major character we have yet to be introduced to. Maybe he’s the new security chief. Loved the last scene: great to see Michelle Yeoh again and it was an emotionally affective scene, tragic and bittersweet.

    • Shane Nokes

      Hey Space Cadet, try condensing a bit, no one will read this it is too long.

      • Partha Mittra

        I read it. Do you have problems reading things over a single sentence?

        • The Science Fiction Oracle

          Do you even know how to read?

          • Partha Mittra

            Well since I can write it follows that I can read.

    • The Science Fiction Oracle

      Seriously Space Cadet, so boring. Write less.

    • Eric Watson

      Cutting of parts of the lifeform seemed way off for anyone in Starfleet. Went beyond what her orders were. But then again, she paid a heavy price for it. On the same token, if I were Michael, no way I get in that things cage after seeing what it can do. But that just shows her human compassion and 23rd century morality.

      • SpaceCadet

        Agreed. Landry was very reckless and got herself killed for it. Lorca also seems quite reckless as the captain and nearly got his himself and his ship and everyone on it destroyed in this episode. If he keeps this up, he won’t last much longer himself. The thing is, this war has only been going on for 6 months. So how were Landry and Lorca behaving prior to that when they were just regular members of Starfleet and just as much explorers as their fellow officers?

      • Dwight Williams

        Landry was looking for revenge for Kolski. And you’re right. She did pay for wanting that revenge.

      • October_1985

        I guess this show wants to show us a Starfleet in evolution, in which there are warmongers like Lorca and Landry, that will become a thing of the past, and scientific minds like Stamets or Burnham that will become somewhat the standard in the ten years leading to the Kirk and co. The pass from a interplanetary police to a exploratory force.

    • Justin Olson

      Re: Landry. I can’t fathom why she was a part of the Discovery crew to begin with from a writing perspective. What’s the point of introducing this character and killing them off the very next episode? Also, if you present her to us as a one-dimensional hardass without a sympathetic bone in her body, we’re not going to care about her death. Especially if that death is born out of stupidity.

      • SpaceCadet

        I think killing off yet another senior officer that we barely knew was the showrunners saying that all bets are off and anyone can die at anytime. Basically it’s the modern day storytelling akin to Game of Thrones or The Walking Dead where (almost) no one is safe. But I agree, as written, the character was one-note and not very sympathetic nor particularly adept at her job so of course the viewing audience won’t bat an eyelash when she kicks the bucket as opposed to say Georgiou.

        • Justin Olson

          I’m sure you’re right, that was the intent, i.e. the character was killed to make the show seem unpredictable and “dangerous.” But when a writer makes a character perform an action we know they would never realistically perform, it just reeks of bad, sloppy writing. They are unintentionally training us to expect that underdeveloped characters are likely headed for the chopping block.

          At least on GoT they develop the characters for an entire season or multiple seasons before they kill them off in a necessary and impactful manner. One and a half episodes just seems like a ridiculously short time to do anything worthwhile with a character on a series. She was like the TV equivalent of the nanny who dies horribly and unexpectedly in JURASSIC WORLD. You’re just left scratching your head. Like the writers didn’t know what to do with the character.

          Bewilderment is generally not a good feeling to evoke in your audience. You want them to feel as if you’re in total control of your story, not rolling the dice with your characters’ mortality every episode. Or, at least, if you are going to do that kind of stuff, do it with some finesse!

  • SpaceCadet

    So who else is next to die!?! Could we have a Captain Saru and the first ever alien captain of a cast in a Star Trek series before the season is out? 😉

    • Shane Nokes

      I bet they will all die so Star Trek can be rebooted for a 3rd time.

      • The Science Fiction Oracle

        I know right?! How many times can they mess over what used to be amazing!

    • I do like him more and more. I also like the byplay between him and Micheal

      • Shane Nokes

        I like the BI-play between a now genderless ship crewed full of homosexuals.

        • What are you talking about?

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            You know exactly what I am talking about man!

        • Partha Mittra

          Evidence sir? Only Stamets and The Ship’s doctor are gay. Plus Captain Lorca and the Security Chief Landry were having sex ,it was implied in episode 3. So you are wrong on your two assertions

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            I know but sex is much better in a heterosexual context.

          • Partha Mittra

            Evidence sir? Sex is between consenting parties, gender is indifferent

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            Spoken like a true he/she/it. Carry on with your gender less bathrooms.

          • This guy is a fake account and not TSFO. he was made today, with the same name and image.

          • Shane Nokes

            Really? Who would do such a thing?

      • SpaceCadet

        The “rivalry” between them is a fun dynamic.

        • I agree, and he is often right. She is emotionally damaged.

          • SpaceCadet

            It would be very bold if this series allows for Burnham to die as part of her redemption arc. But I don’t think that’s very likely as she is the star of the show.

          • One never knows

  • Shane Nokes

    That’s it, I have had enough of this series and I no longer like it.

    • Partha Mittra

      Well thanks for playing!

      • The Science Fiction Oracle

        What did he play exactly?

        • Mimicking other folks accounts is not cool man.

          • mr joyce

            whoever it is has also made multiple other accounts to just troll this site, shane nokes for example.. now they are mimicking others, lol… losers.. blocked

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            Wrong again. I am the real TSFO!

          • Same. I have reported the account however.

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            I am not mimicking anyone I am the real TSFO!

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            I am the real one!

  • Gazelle

    There are just so many little things wrong with this version of ST, it can’t feel likeTrek!
    -Neanderthal Klingons
    -Klingons with active interest in science
    -kahless takes a back seat
    -Spinning saucer section
    -Poor/improperly used science
    -Two way communication via hologram
    -STD extremely advanced science capabilities
    -Michael Vulcan trained for years but the character is off somehow
    -Enslavement, Mutiny, SF character conflict
    -Poor writing Characters/Plot
    -The cadence is off for Trek, it attempts to draw you in through out the story but ultimately falls short at almost every attempt.

    • The Science Fiction Oracle

      Thank you sir, a man who is not afraid to speak the truth around here.

    • 1: The Klingon you like or dislike.
      2: Kahless is not taking a back seat, as the dead man was thought to be, by his followers, the 2nd coming of Kahless
      3: Welcome to trek with its bad science
      4: Its 2017, two way Holograms make more sense for 2256 than facetime
      5: Michael was a traumatized child who suffered mental abuse by Vulcans and pretty much is hitting all the Hallmarks of long term and recently trigger PTSD

    • prometheus59650

      If Klingons had no active interest in science, the entire race would have been crushed centuries before by the first advanced species they ever came across.

      They may not thrill at scientists and hold them upon pedestals, but they need them.

      Because praying to Kahless doesn’t cloak the ships and it never did.

    • SpaceCadet

      Klingons with an interest in science has been shown before on Star Trek: The Next Generation and Star Trek: Enterprise. It’s not something new here. They wouldn’t be able to travel through the galaxy and be a major opponent of the Federation if they didn’t have an interest in science.

      • Also, Kang had his SCIENCE OFFICER with him in “Day of the Dove.”

    • pittrek

      I agree with almost everything except for the active interest in science. We have seen Klingon scientists, doctors, lawyers etc. before. Even in Enteprise there was an episode in which they addressed it.

    • JP

      This is a Trek reboot. You have to let all of those things go to enjoy it. Either you’re in for a reboot with new rules & definitions, or you’re not.

      The creators don’t want to label it a reboot for obvious reasons, but that’s what it is. Roll with it or not, but trying to fit it into the Trek you are familiar with just ain’t gonna happen.

      • Gazelle

        JP,

        Yea and maybe that’s my whole rub with the reboot thing, JJ basically comes in and rewrites my entire childhood! Now STD is giving me another itch because they wanna seem to change things up. I just think it’s sad that a reboot in the eyes of JJ and Paramount required a history rewrite. So now there are several skews of history in the trek verse which are not right. Basically Trek is getting taken down a path which ultimately, I believe will shove the show into the same mold as any other TV show and movie out there. Star wars fans I think recognized this and that is why they’ve fought to preserve it and try and keep JJs hands off the helm. STD would be much better if they did better writing and a better job at getting the science right. I’ll hit some of the glaring problems, this show is supposed to be set 10 years prior to TOS and the show does not reflect that at all in any way, Neanderthal Klingon isn’t right in any Trek version that exists. Lastly, Roddenberry envisioned a Trek universe where humanity had eliminated quarreling and fighting amongst itself, we’re somewhat straying away from that.

        • JP

          Main difference is that JJ deliberately set his reboot in a separate universe to preserve what everyone grew up with, and even used Spock as the conduit between the two.

          Discovery is very purposely doing the opposite – overwriting all that we knew. Two very different creative approaches with very different ramifications on Trek overall.

          As far as Roddenberry’s restrictive rules, watch “Chaos on the Bridge.” He didn’t have those rules during TOS and they almost strangulated TNG creatively before it was ever able to breathe.

          • Keith Melton

            “overwriting all that we knew” That is a rather grand statement.

            So far to me they have done an admirable job making it fit into 10 years pre-Kirk but still giving us something new and exciting.

          • Gazelle

            We’ll have to agree to disagree with regards to Roddenberry, I’ve read and heard what I have and have no reason to doubt his intent, our interpretation may be off some but I believe that he lived up to those standards. Trek at this point has been chopped and diced into some many different flavors, it’s just another Scifi show at this point.

  • The Science Fiction Oracle

    a COUPLE of THOUGHTS

    first, i really love the new saucer sausage section that was designed as a word play ghost straight out of a durable medical equipment video game similar to Super Mario Bros.

    second, I find vile and attractive at the same time the shape of that new alien’s face, it kind of reminds me a bit of a vagina.

    third, do you remember in ST-ID when STD ended up looking a lot like a white washed Kahn with lense flairs?

  • Eric Cheung

    This was definitely the most Star Trek episode of Discovery yet. New life is sought out, life that reminds me a bit of Stranger Things, and that makes me worry about that life’s fate.

    The crew has settled into a more comfortable groove where they can work together. They’re a little less on edge. And we get a bit more of a peek into what regular life on the ship is like. Stamets in particular is far less curt this time around. Even Lorca seems reasonable, compared to Landry. He’s results oriented, even if the results clash with his preconceived notions.

    We get the first hints at Stamets and Culber’s relationship, though only in the playfully bad bedside manner a long-term couple might use to tease each other.

    Even the Klingons get to have some banter, reminiscent of what the type of thing DS9 would show amongst Cardassians or Ferengi just hanging out. I bet more than a few fans out there are kind of shipping Voq and L’Rell. I’m not sure I am, but they sure seem to be devoted to each other and dig the way the other is a bit of an outcast among Klingons. Their conversation reveals some particularly gruesome implications a bit far beyond what we’ve seen before with Klingons, but oddly not beyond what’s been implied of Ferengi, before their formal first contact with the Federation.

    This is by far the best episode yet, though I wonder how much that impression is colored by the relatively happy ending the characters get this week. Given next week’s title is “Choose Your Pain,” I’m not sure how long that respite will last. But it will feature Harcourt Fenton Mudd…

    • Shane Nokes

      Dude, this is way to long. No one will read it. Try again.

      • Partha Mittra

        I read it and I value Eric’s responses as thoughtful. Your review was not

        • Shane Nokes

          You are a moron.

        • The Science Fiction Oracle

          Your review is like poo.

          • Partha Mittra

            Again that magnificent wit!

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            Wit is for twit.

          • Partha Mittra

            Definition of wit.
            1.
            mental sharpness and inventiveness; keen intelligence.
            “he does not lack perception or native wit”
            synonyms: intelligence, shrewdness, astuteness, cleverness, canniness, sense, common sense, wisdom, sagacity, judgment, acumen, insight; More
            the intelligence required for normal activity; basic human intelligence.
            “he needed all his wits to figure out the way back”
            2.
            a natural aptitude for using words and ideas in a quick and inventive way to create humor.
            “a player with a sharp tongue and a quick wit”
            synonyms: wittiness, humor, funniness, drollery, esprit; More
            a person who has an aptitude for using words and ideas in a quick and inventive way.
            “she is such a wit”
            synonyms: comedian, humorist, comic, joker, jokester; More

            wit != twit

          • Shane Nokes

            Well done. You know how to do an online search for a word’s definition. Fucking idiot.

      • I read it.

        • Shane Nokes

          shannon, you are a nice fella, but come on!

    • kadajawi

      If only the Klingon scenes were shown at 150%. They are so incredibly slow. It completely ruins the pacing, it doesn’t look believable, and it doesn’t sound believable. It’s horrible. I don’t like _anything_ related to the Klingons yet. The ship (and that they have a cloaking device… weren’t they supposed to get those from the Romulans years in the future? Maybe their deceased leader has stolen it from Romulans, or already made a deal with them in advance…), the speech (we’ve occasionally heard Klingons speak Klingon, and they sounded very different in every way, shape or form), and the costumes (they are supposed to FIGHT in that?).

      • Brian_Brodrick

        is there any hard canon statements anywhere that the Klingons got cloaking technology from the Romulans during the original series or is that fan speculation that is the case based solely on the use of their ships by the Romulans. Granted it makes sense as an exchange, but I’m just wondering if it was actually said to be a thing.

        • kadajawi

          Actually… I don’t know. I took it for granted, but come to think of it, yeah, it wasn’t mentioned on the show, was it? I’ll take that back then.

  • Shane Nokes

    Here is my review of the episode:

    Any two year old can draw a triangle and a circle, connect them and then think of a generic name to call it “Discovery”

    Klingons do not look like that. Period. End of discussion.

    Let’s force feed our way out there beliefs on all of humanity and call it the right thing morally – punishing all those who disagree.

    No way does this kind of tech exist “10 years before prime enterprise”

    Michael is ugly.

    Everything is dark, nothing is a utopia or hopeful future for mankind.

  • The Science Fiction Oracle

    HOW MANY MORE ACCOUNTS WILL I HAVE TO CREATE BEFORE YOU LOSERS IN HERE LEARN SOME REAL RESPECT!

  • Shane Nokes

    HOW MANY MORE ACCOUNTS WILL I HAVE TO CREATE BEFORE YOU LOSERS LEARN SOME REAL RESPECT!

  • Fiery Little One

    So they got the drive to work. Question now is why isn’t it common ‘later’ on?

    • Partha Mittra

      They only got it to work by torturing the Ripper. Burnham seemed to genuinely care for the animal and realized they were torturing an intelligent life form. That alone may be the reason why we don’t see it again

      • And no clue where the ripper came from

        • SpaceCadet

          I couldn’t help but get strong vibes during this episode that are very reminiscent of the storyline on Stranger Things if you’ve seen that show and the creature on that show comes from a parallel dimension. Similarly the tardigrade on this show emanates from this thread of spores throughout the universe and the Glenn inadvertently opened a gateway to let it out in “normal” space.

          • I think the Glynn picked it up as well. I think the universe hoping is how we may get our Mirror verse EP. Really this tech is not all that stable, safe or humain

          • Eric Cheung

            The Stranger Things connection I found was that Ripper is like Eleven, and I suspect a similar fate.

          • SpaceCadet

            That’s a good comparison too!

      • Fiery Little One

        That did appear to be the case, I was just curious if that ends up being the only reason. I perfectly fine if that’s the only reason, btw.

        • SpaceCadet

          I think because Starfleet classifies the project. It’s already strongly implied in dialogue that the Discovery is not like other starships what with its hush hush policies and Black Alerts and black badges.

          • Fiery Little One

            I have a thought about that, and I know I’m not alone in thinking this. I’m just waiting for them to say something about it on the show.

      • Fiery Little One

        I’m perfectly willing to accept that being the case.

    • JP

      Because Michael will lead a mutiny when she realizes that it is built on the suffering of the creatures. Don’t be shocked if it turns out to be sentient.

      • Fiery Little One

        Yeah, we’ve seen other civilizations make that mistake on the other shows, so it’s our turn here.

  • Thanks for the Fast action Trekcore.

    • The Science Fiction Oracle

      Agreed, THANKS!

    • Eric Watson

      This story had me hooked! Fast and fun. Agree 100%

  • GIBBS v2

    I may be on the outside on this but I wish the Klingons spoke english. I appreciate the effort to speak authentic Klingon and I get that it makes them more alien but it gets to be a little tedious.

    One of the characters might be delivering an amazing line about honor but that moments is undermined by the clunky nature of the language.

    I love the show, I just wish they would abandon the language an do it like have for decades. English with an accent and the occasionally Qapla’ dropped in.

    • I would not mind if they segwayed into English

      • Keith Melton

        I’ve always felt the way ST6 handled this was elegant and perfect.

    • SpaceCadet

      I don’t mind it precisely because it does make them more alien and I can follow along just fine with the subtitles. Frankly, aliens speaking English all the time can take me out of the story because of how silly it seems. Aliens speaking English on Starfleet starships is okay because they’ve been trained to speak English.

      • GIBBS v2

        I want one of those Red October moments, when it magically transitions from Russian to english. We all get it, we all heard and saw it they are aliens. I want to enjoy the performance and appreciate the costumes and sets and not squint at that giant weird font choice they went with.

    • Justin Olson

      And the CBS All Access subtitles are terrible! All caps and sometimes they don’t even stay on the screen long enough to read them.

  • Trent

    It is an Iconian

  • Sad_Trekker

    So, a lot of folks enjoyed the episode. I can respect that. I’m not among that number, but to each their own.

    I’m curious that no one seems to have addressed what looks like a major plot hole: the sarcophagus ship. According to the episode, it has been adrift for six months. This sets up the crew mutiny we see later on. So for this to happen, we have to believe that:

    1) Starfleet didn’t attempt to salvage or scuttle any of the wrecks from battle for six months;

    2) That the Klingons did the same;

    3) That the Klingons are willing to eat Federation corpses, but not use their technology, since apparently *that* is just going too far;

    4) And that none of the remaining twenty three great houses, or Starfleet, was interested in investigating what happened to the ship that, as far as anyone knows, has the only functioning invisibility field in the known galaxy. The Klingons knew the ship had It, and Starfleet survivors saw it in action. But it wasn’t important enough to send a single ship to recon the system for six months?

    You address this point, and the Klingon arc collapses.

    If people enjoy the show, that’s great; more power to you. But anyone claiming this show is well-written is either deluding themselves, or flat out lying. It’s not, and to have these issues so early into the run does not bode well for future quality.

    • Partha Mittra

      Sad_Trekker : to your point 4) The House of Kor basically stole the ship from T’Kuvma’s followers. He took it for precisely the reason you state. They may have waited six months to wait for the existing followers to become weak with hunger or die off so they would not have to fight for the ship. I loved the episode very much but I acknowledge that your first three points are legitimate

      • 1 Is easy, Klingons controlled the battlefield, and more or less that area of space.

        • Sad_Trekker

          It’s implied that the Klingons won the battle, but there is nothing indicating that they held onto the area afterwards. It’s just as likely that they fell back to reinforce their existing borders. The battle was not planned by the other houses; it was more of a spur-of-the-moment event that the Klingon messiah manipulated the representatives who remained into joining.

          • Partha Mittra

            If they won the battle then why would they not hold the territory? A warrior race would do this at a minimum if there was no threat for them to hold conquered territory.

          • Sad_Trekker

            Because they weren’t ready to fight a war yet. The battle in that system was not planned by the empire, it was a battle of opportunity. The representatives were manipulated into fighting a skirmish, they weren’t prepared to fight a war at that very instant.

          • Partha Mittra

            Just because a power is not ready to fight a war does not mean it won’t fight. World War I is a perfect example of this. The Austrians and the Russians were badly prepared but their initial skirmish drew the other powers in. Just a thought, you still might be right. I love the fact that we Trekkers can discuss this stuff in a civilized way.

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            Agreed. This Sad Trekker dude isn’t much of a student of history.

          • No, he wants a plot hole and will hand wave off any common sense explination to create one.

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            Get real. Study history, dude. Wars are hardly ever carefully planned, and usually start in unpredictable ways, and in many cases, one side, or ever both sides, are completely unprepared for war.

          • Sad_Trekker

            Sure, dude. Whatever, dude.

            Doesn’t change the fact in any way that this whole plotline is stupid, and that the Klingons are apparently too dumb to pick up the space phone and call the cloaking ship when it didn’t show up after a few weeks, or to have any of T’kumva’s allies go to space Autozone to drop off a space battery for their ship, or that the Federation is apparently too stupid to see what use a cloaking device is for ships in a war. Nah, it’s all history. I should have known better.

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            You are nitpicking. I could pick any of those real wars in history that I mentioned and come up with all kinds of example like these. So what? LOL

          • Sad_Trekker

            Just speaking in language you can grok, dude.

            And who gives a flying fig about past wars? The scenario with the Klingon ship tonight is like saying that the Enola Gay crashed in Japanese territory instead of making it to Hiroshima, and just lay there with its atomic bomb for six months with no one attempting to recover it. Now, replace “atomic bomb” with “cloaking device.” Does this seem like a logical outcome to you? If so, I *really* want to hear your reasoning.

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            Now I know you an OK dude given the Heinlein reference. 🙂

            Tell you what, go read Atkinson’s Pulitzer Prize winning non-fiction account of the U.S./Allied War in North Africa from 42-43 (An Army at Dawn), and then try to tell me that wars are not full of tons of dumb-ass moves, withdraws and bad offensives, bad intelligence leading to stupid decisions, generals doing inexplicable dumb things, etc. etc. etc

            You seem to have a sort of John McNamara type of opinion that war is some sort of controllable science, with logical moves and chess-like efficiency — that simply does not pan out in reality. War is messy, and in many cases, tons of stupid, inexplicable things happen. This is especially true when a government has been soft in peacetime for too many years, like the US in 1941, and like Starfleet before the Klingon War. That is why I use the example of the North African campaign — the cluster-f*ck of the U.S. entry in WWII, before we got our act together later in Sicily, etc.

            The star of this war with the Klingons I agree is a complete cluster-f*ck, with a number of “what the f*ck” things happening, as you have mentioned. To me, that just makes it all the much more believable.

          • Sad_Trekker

            I never claimed that war was some controllable thing. But then look at this: the survivors of the Shenzou come back and say “hey, remember that huge honking ship that could turn invisible? We disabled it, and it’s right over there.” We now have to accept that Starfleet 1) didn’t send out a recon vessel to check the area, or 2) at least send some probes to keep an eye on things – for *six months.* Even if we roll out the whole “well Gene said Starfleet doesn’t sneak around, so that’s why they don’t use cloaking devices,” it doesn’t change the fact that having one would allow Starfleet to possibly develop a way to track them.

            But the real reason they don’t go after it is that Starfleet isn’t supposed to have a cloaking device until Kirk steals one in TOS, and to make sure canon isn’t broken in this case, Starfleet has to act like they are run by complete morons (which is absolutely proven correct if it turns out that they did go back to the battlefield and took objects off the Shenzou, such as the telescope, while not bothering to scuttle the ship, or investigating the ship known to have a cloaking device that is drifting right next to them.)

            Letting the Klingons have a cloak at this point has opened a can of worms that they didn’t consider and don’t know how to fix, and it shows.

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            “Starfleet has to act like they are run by complete morons”

            Which is exactly how most soft governments that are shell-shocked out a period of peace and complacency react when war is unexpectedly thrust upon then. Yea, they got bad intel that suggested the Klingon ship was destroyed or gone, and then “the politicians” in the Federation force Starfleet to immediately put resources and ships to protect all of the major Federation worlds, severely constraining a limited peacetime exploration fleet — welcome to the onset of war!

            You just proved my point for me!

          • Sad_Trekker

            Where did I say that Starfleet was led to believe that the cloaking ship was destroyed? The Shenzou survivors would have reported it as disabled, since that is what they saw before abandoning ship. Starfleet then apparenrly doesn’t feel like verifying this information for six months afterwards. Even if they are ship constrained at the beginning of the conflict, they have probes. But no one bothers to send one to the binary star because, reasons.

            This isn’t a case of being shell shocked. This is a case of writers being poor at their job. This isn’t some little detail you can wave off without changing the story. This plot point has major implications for both sides. It absolutely *does* change the course of the story if it is studied as it should have been.

            Lazy writing. Period.

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            Nope. Welcome to the onset of war for an ill-prepared Federation government and a largely exploration-centric fleet fleet of vessels.

            It’s messy, stupid stuff happens, and yet in hindsight, the mistakes of war seem easily correctable. That’s the reality of it.

          • Sad_Trekker

            Any military that is too stupid to verify whether a literal war-changing technology that was left on their doorstep is, or isn’t still there- for six months – using the very tools they built to do such validation, isn’t messy. It’s either blatantly stupid, or criminally negligent.

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            You mean like the same Starfleet “military” that never sent a Starship or probe back for over a decade to check on the progress of the genetically-egineered superman that they had left on Ceti Alpha V? Never even sent a probe to monitor the system? Completely missed Ceti Alpha VI blowing up?

            See!!!

          • Sad_Trekker

            That one is absolutely inexcusable as well. The difference here, though, is that Khan isn’t invading the Federation. You’d think that just maybe Starfleet would be paying a bit more attention in this case.

          • DC Forever

            I don’t see much diferent in terms of these. If Khan had got Genesis, he would have laid the Federation to waste – he even said so.

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            Well put. The Federation was asleep at the wheel — a huge mistake that could have led to a crippling of the Federation and billions of citizens wiped out.

          • DC Forever

            One of many major screwups in Starfleet history.

            Heck, Starfleet Command HQ in San Francisco did’ even install strong enough windows to survive some harsh winds in ST4.

            We all live Starfleet and the Federation, but they are flawed bureaucracies.

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            And I would add that the Federation and Starfleet have made incredibly huge blunders in starship assignments regarding earth’s defense as well. How possibly could the Enterprise be the only starship in Earth’s sector of space that could face off against V’ger. Makes no sense! If that is indicative of Starfleet’s typical defense operations and planning in peacetime, I can easily see how they might trust bad intel and not send a follow-up ship to see what is still there in the system in question in DSC.

          • M33

            “Bureaucracy is the only constant in the universe.”

            -Dr. McCoy
            Star Trek IV

          • mswood666

            Starfleet saw examples it would seem of two cloaked vesels. Probes cant detect them, starships cant detect them. And they have no idea how many shis have tgat ability. The other klingonbhouses also have no knowledge on the number of ships that have this function. And klingons are known to wait near wrecks to attack those that come to rescue or investigate.

          • I t was already the edge of space, they curb stopped the Federation fleet. They also got there far, far faster than the federation, showing they held bases in the area. Would you risk two or three ships to try and salvage one you are unsure can even be salvaged?

            And no one on the Federation side knows it was unplanned, it sure as heck looked planned.

          • Sad_Trekker

            Why would the Klingons have bases in range of the border, but not the Federation? Starfleet had an array of posts along the Romulan border, and at this time in history the Romulans haven’t been seen in decades. Why would they not do at least as much against the Klingons? It doesn’t make sense, but the plot doesn’t work if Starfleet is actually thinking like they should in this scenario.

          • Because for the federation this was far out there, not so for the klingons, they had a holy relic right there. They got there far, far too fast not to have outposts near and the map shows juts this, they have a crap load on the boarder.

          • Sad_Trekker

            So basically Starfleet’s strategy in dealing with the Klingons was to hope that they didn’t attack? That’s really what we have to believe here for this sequence of events to unfold.

          • Partha Mittra

            The French ,before WWII , believed that basic thing. They hoped that sitting behind the Maginot line would be enough deterrence. They had no strategy to defeat any German advance even though Germany had already taken the Lorraine region and began rearming. Great powers sometime make terrible assumptions.

          • Sad_Trekker

            The Maginot Line has been held up as an example of what not to do in war for decades. For Starfleet to resort to this level of thinking against an enemy that can devastate planets in short order is just really pushing it.

            Basically, this plotline only works because of some extremely unlikely course of events happening, and Starfleet acting like total idiots. It’s just poor writing. The justifications that have to be made for it all to work out are just too much.

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            “Basically, this plotline only works because of some extremely unlikely course of events happening”

            Ah, like the start of World War 1, the US War in Iraq (2003), the War of 1812, and the Falklands War.

            Whoops!!! LOL :-))

          • Sad_Trekker

            You’re confusing “unlikely events” with “purposely stupid and/or evil intent.”

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            No I’m not. “Unlikely” is the broad term for viewing those wars in review mirror — “purposely stupid” (e.g. Bush forcing the CIA to claim Iraq had WMD) and “evil intent” (e.g. the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria-Hungary) are some of the aspects that can lead to an unlikely war.

          • Sad_Trekker

            Honestly, if you enjoy the show, more power to you. But the mental gymnastics folks have to jump through to believe that this is smart writing is amazing.

            T’Kumva obviously planned to start a war to unite the Empire. The representatives of the houses who showed up at the beacon were most likely *not* expecting to have the shooting start right then and there. If they were, they would have come with much more substantial forces and held that territory after the attack. But the episode doesn’t back that up, which makes what follows more absurd.

          • M33

            Please, they planned to invade Iraq soon after 911 happened.

            I saw that one coming…

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            Exactly, and from a historical perspective, there was no just reason for it. Hence, it seems “unlikely” given a review of the facts of why that war ever happened.

          • This is how they work, They do the same on the Romulans and more or less everyone else. There are a few bases, but they try not to “provoke” the other guy by reinforcing the boarder.

        • SpaceCadet

          A poster on another message board pointed out a good catch – if someone retrieved Georgiou’s telescope from the ready room of the Shenzhou to deliver to Burnham as part of Geogiou’s will, then surely Starfleet could have returned to the site of the battle to remove vital technology from the starship before it got into enemy hands or just blow up the starship completely. Unless the telescope that was delivered wasn’t the same one that we saw from Georgiou’s ready room.

          • It may not be the same, heck Micheal could have taken it herself. The ship was not in danger, they just needed to bug out. There was time after the battle to take belongings.

          • Sad_Trekker

            When would Mike have had a chance to grab it after the battle, and why would Gerogiou have an identical telescope that looked like it had gone through a battle? It’s strongly implied that this is the telescope from the ship.

            EDIT: It’s possible that the survivors of the Shenzou could have grabbed it as they abandoned ship, but since they appeared to be leaving in a hurry (how would they have known that there were no more Klingons in the area?) I find it very, very unlikely that the telescope would be something grabbed as they were fleeing the ship with wounded crewmembers.

            Heck, I hadn’t even caught this at first. This makes the plot hole even worse, since the sarcophagus ship was literally *right next* to the Shenzou. Man, that is just bad.

          • We have no clue how long after she got to the ship they abandoned it. It was safe, no rush to leave at once, and its clear some things had been cleared out

            Man, this is not a plot hole at all. Its pretty easy t explain if you sit and think about it.

          • Sad_Trekker

            How do you think it’s safe? They left in escape pods, and had no way of determining if there were more enemies in the area. If it was safe to remain on the ship, why would they have left it in the first place? It’s obvious that it was intended to show the crew leaving as quickly as possible.

          • By safe, I mean it was not gonna go boom. It was dead.So there was no rush to get off the ship ASAP, It was likely an orderly evac making sure no one got left behind. The only threat was down, they had time to get to the pods and run.

          • SpaceCadet

            Speaking of which, if Shenzhou’s crew abandoned her, why didn’t they set her to self-destruct? In just last week’s episode the Discovery blew up the Glenn so that she wouldn’t fall into enemy hands.

          • They may not have been able to, the power was dead IIRC. You can’t make the core go boom if its shut down. And she was an old ship anyhow. As far the Glynn, I assume you need command codes, which you would not have outside the command crew,

          • SpaceCadet

            Well with the Glenn the crew was already dead so of course they’re not going to initiate self-destruct. My point was that Starfleet was acting in proper procedure to destroy that ship by firing on it. And that if Starfleet did have access to the graveyard of ships at the battle of the binary stars then they should have destroyed any of their own ships their as well.

          • No disagreement

          • reddkryten

            Remember, the Glenn was a new ship with an experimental drive, if that fell into enemy hands and was discovered then the Klingon’s could use that against the Federation.

            The Shenzhou was an old ship and the technology onboard was probably familiar to the Klingons (the fact that a piece of it was compatible with the Klingon ship supports that) so it was not considered worth the effort to destroy it.

          • SpaceCadet

            Yes, but even if your ship has technology that is familiar to the enemy you still attempt to destroy it so that the enemy can’t use it in their wartime effort against you. And besides that, you don’t risk having them access your computer which can reveal potentially damaging intelligence on yourself.

          • reddkryten

            Absolutly, I don’t disagree, they SHOULD have destroyed it. I deliberately wrote “not worth the effort” for a reason.

            I’m making the assumption that autodestruct was offline. If it was easy to destroy the Shenzhou, they have no excuse for not doing it.

            Without autodestruct they need to rely on another ship to shoot it. If the area is safe and everything is normal, the other ship should have done that.

            However, lets say the other ship was damaged (which is likely) carrying wounded that need urgent attention at a starbase, low on torpedos after the battle (and wishing to conserve their remaining torpedos in case the Klingon’s return) and rushing to get out of enemy controlled territory. I can understand why destroying an outdated ship would end up a fairly low priority.

            After Wolf 359, the Enterprise had better things to do that destroy what was left of the ship graveyard.

          • Judith Rodriguez

            Maybe the Capatin collected telescopes? She probably had several, including the one in her office. The one she left Michael had been in her family many generations. It was probably safe in the case stored with her will until her attorney sent it to Michael.

          • SpaceCadet

            I thought that might be a possible answer as well.

      • Sad_Trekker

        But again, the scenario only works if every other party involved in the battle conveniently leaves the ship alone, and based on its importance, is that really likely?

        • Partha Mittra

          One of the things we have seen (in all Treks) is that Klingons play politics as well as any Machiavellian types. In politics often doing nothing for a while is a good strategy to gain longer term objectives. Maybe this is what was happening in terms of the six month wait.

          • Sad_Trekker

            Again, the cloaking device is made out to be a huge technological advantage. Why would the other houses leave it sit and allow one of them to gain a strategic foothold over the rest?

          • Because, the other houses had some respect for him and they were repairing the ship, This is normal klingon stuff, we saw this kinda stuff post TNG all the time.

          • Sad_Trekker

            Several houses left the meeting and weren’t involved in the battle, so they obviously didn’t buy into the message he was preaching. And honor only goes so far among Klingons, again as we have seen. Apparently the vessel was so badly damaged that it couldn’t even broadcast a signal. One of the more opportunistic houses could attack the ship and take it by force, and no one would be any the wiser. And as far as attacking other Klingons, it wouldn’t be a stretch to paint T’Kumvs and his followers as blasphemers – his house is already considered an outsider at that point.

          • The other houses likely shielded him. Recall Kol acted all happy, happy until he knew just how bad off the ship was. Most others likely did not understand. This really fits with how we see them work

          • Sad_Trekker

            Shielding the house doesn’t explain why no one came to look for the ship after it had been missing for six months. Again, no one would have let that cloaking device go and risk it falling into Federation hands under normal circumstances. We just have to accept that there is no good justification for the plot unfolding this way.

          • Yeah, it does. They controlled that space, there was no risk. This is how klingons work, Kol would not have moved unless his house had backing enough to handle the other houses.

          • Sad_Trekker

            But as someone else pointed out, and I had missed, Starfleet must have gone back prior to that point, since the telescope from the ready room was recovered, and that means that Starfleet had freedom of travel in that area (and also happened to miss the kilometer-long Klingon ship floating next to the Shenzou).

          • Not really, I explained this below.

          • Sad_Trekker

            And I replied – your explanation just doesn’t hold up. If the situation was clear, they wouldn’t be leaving the ship, and if it’s not safe, they aren’t going to be loading personal items of deceased crewmembers into already crowded lifeboats with wht has to be a significant number of wounded.

          • I feel it does. The ship was in no danger of going boom, the other ship was no longer a threat. You had time for an orderly evac.

          • Sad_Trekker

            And again, they had no way of determining if there was a threat or not. Even if their sensors were fully functional, which they likely were not, they had just battled a ship that had a functional cloaking device, so they would have had no way to detect other threats as it was. It is extremely unlikely that they would have considered the area secure and hung around, especially long enough to grab mementos on the way out.

          • Dude, the only ship left got its bridge shot off. You had Micheal who was a basket case walking around. People like that will take things often in a state of shock. You are trying to make a plot hole and not looking at all the ways it could have been explained away.

          • Sad_Trekker

            The Klingon ship didn’t have an auxiliary bridge? How do we know it didn’t, and more importantly, how would the crew know? And Mike was a muntineer at this point. Is she just going to be allowed to walk around the ship?

            You can explain anything in a TV show away, but you can end up hurting yourself pretty seriously with all the leaps you have to make, such as in this case.

          • Once more, the explanation is simple and fits. You are trying to make it something it is not because you happen to dislike it.

          • Sad_Trekker

            The explanation is simple if every character and organization on the show acts like idiots, yes. I was hoping that wouldn’t be the case though.

          • We are not gonna agree, you are not looking for an explanation. You are looking for something to dislike and something to scream “Ah ha! Plot hole” over.

          • Sad_Trekker

            If the “fix” is as non-sensical as the original problem, then it’s not much of a fix, is it?

          • We have nothing more to say here man. You have ignored every common sense explanation. So you have a good one

          • Sad_Trekker

            I guess our definitions of “common sense” differ. You have a good one as well.

          • Partha Mittra

            Depends on how influential the followers of T’Kuvma were. What if they were so influential that trying to take T’Kuvma’s ship was equivalent to some sort of religious blasphemy. Remember T’Kuvma is seen as a messiah like figure so this is not a great leap to make. During this time the other houses decided to wait until some of T’Kuvma’s followers back home had become less zealous

        • Husnock

          But who says they left it alone? The ship is crippled, but life support still functions. Perhaps the weapons are already repaired. Perhaps Starfleet thought they were, because of energy readings that were actually something else.

    • Eric Watson

      Klingons have eaten hearts of enemies before. They do “sharpen their teeth” before battle. I agree though, it did seem odd that the shipwreck was still there.

      • Sad_Trekker

        Except that the dialogue made it clear that eating the Fed corpse was taboo, and was used as a counterpoint to him not wanting to obtain equipment from the Shenzou. The scenario just doesn’t work as presented without major leaps in believability.

        • Eric Watson

          I must have missed that part of the translated dialog. Thanks for the correction. I’m sure I’ll see that next viewing. 🙂

          • Sad_Trekker

            Well, I shouldn’t say clear, but L’Rell brought it up as a point, as if to say “so eating them doesn’t affect your purity, but using their thingamajig does?”

          • Meat is meat. But taking their tech to run your ship was a whole other line.

          • Sad_Trekker

            L’rell’s comment makes it pretty clear that it’s not as simple as “meat is meat.”

          • Starving humans eat other dead humans. They make excuses , just as he did. She simply pointed out his hypocrisy

          • Sad_Trekker

            But his hypocracy only goes do far? Admit It, the scenario just doesn’t work. Far too many exceptional things have to occur for this mutiny to take place.

          • Yeah, it does. You just disliked it.

          • Sad_Trekker

            I only dislike weak writing, which this whole plotline is.

          • Then do not watch it. I filled in your plot holes without even thinking hard. So I am done with this.

          • Sad_Trekker

            I’m not watching it anymore…..I canceled my subscription tonight.

            As far as your explanations go: you can make a square peg fit into a round hole if you hit it hard enough.

            I appreciate your responses. I wish the writers had put half as much effort into the scripts as you did your replies. Sadly, ’tis not to be.

          • Victorinox
          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            LOL

          • Quonk

            Favourite Klingon on the show so far.

        • DC Forever

          You must have hated TNG then, where it seemed like every other episode introduced silly technbabble to fill plot holes.

          Or perhaps you would have preferred if they had a line of dialogue where they recovered the telescope through:

          “applying a matter transducer to a phase break in the gasesos anomaly that was blocking the forward sensor array tachyons from locating the Klingon ship.”

          That’s how Berman Trek would have handled this. Lol. Thank god they are keeping that crap to a minimum in this series. I prefer to debate about possible plot holes versus the Berman Trek technbabble solutions that pander to weak-minded fans.

          • Neill Stringer

            I happen to love the technobabble in the Berman era and I still remain adament that some of the best Trek was done under his watch. I think it’s unfair of the criticism the guy gets when he us up against networks demands that were by people who did not get Trek.

            By the way I really enjoyed this week’s episode but I still love the other shows also.

          • kadajawi

            Exactly. I don’t get the hate for Berman. Not all he did was great, but for example IIRC he mentioned he was forced to do a serialized show. Story arcs weren’t allowed by the studio. He also had to work his way around Genes rules. And on Orville he is keeping techno babble to a minimum. (IMHO some is fine, and enjoyable, it’s just that at some point they did indeed do too much).

        • TUP

          I thought they were starving. They’d eat anyone if they were starving.

    • October_1985

      Points 3 and 4 are fair.

    • Salvador Nogueira

      You have good points, though nothing disturbingly inconsistent.

      1) Most Starfleet ships either left the system or were beyond repairs. Shenzhou was considered old even seven years before the battle, when Burnham came onboard. Nothing to really salvage there. Besides, Starfleet’s priority should be to hold their lines, since there are nearby colonies that should be protected, and not re-engage the Klingons at the Binary Stars.

      2) The Klingons apparently salvaged everything they could to get the Sarcophagus Ship operational again. The system was obviously claimed by the House of T’Kuvma, and Kol waited until it could easily get the ship for himself without much of a fight (a reasonable action in a time of war).

      3) Klingons reportedly eat the heart of their enemies. But the House of T’Kuvma is a group of fanatics obsessed with Klingon purity.

      4) For all we know, and based on Kol’s dialogue, the Klingon houses were aware of the Sarcophagus Ship’s status and were waiting for it to reinforce them on the front lines. But I don’t see Klingons easily accepting they need the help of a pariah’s ship to defeat some puny humans…

  • scooternva

    Another great installment of “Discovery”. My hat’s off to Jeff Russo–the muscular, energetic score for tonight’s episode amped up the drama factor to 11. I love that the producers of this show didn’t go the wimpy Rick Berman route with a watery wallpaper approach to musical sound design. This FEELS like Star Trek.

    • kadajawi

      There was music? A indeed, looking at it again, somewhere in the background there was. No but really, it’s the same issue I have with Marvel movies and their soundtrack. The soundtrack may be fine, but it’s somewhere way back in the mix, everything is playing over it. Now you may prefer this subtlety compared to the on the nose in the foreground soundtracks of TNG or Orville, but it just doesn’t stand out. It’s tapestry, it’s background. It’s, well, almost Hans Zimmer-y? Many times in Orville I notice the soundtrack, and think… yup, that sounds great. It’s a soundtrack I would listen to by itself, and I may even remember it. In DSC ep. 4 there is one point where I noticed the soundtrack, and that’s where they pick up a part of the main theme.

  • Eric Watson

    Saw the episode a few hours ago. Letting it all sink in. The more of the ship itself I see, the more I am impressed by the effort and detail put into the design. I loved that sickbay had the 1960s sound effects. I liked the extreme close up of a shirt being synthesized at the very start. Her old captain leaving her the telescope was a perfect and heartbreaking ending. The motives of the characters are being flushed out more and more. So far, I like each episode better than the last. I still don’t like the Klingon look, it doesn’t bug me as much, but it still just looks wrong to me, especally then having 4 nostrils. But I can get over that. I like that the “monster” from last week paid off more in this week. It wansn’t just there for action’s sake. I feel like I did in the 90s all over again, discovering Trek for the first time. I wish I could hug everyone that revived Trek.

    • When you think of it, the 4 Nostrils are more like one with an exo armor. Which fits either way as klingons have so many back up organs.

      • Eric Watson

        And that is a cool idea. I am pretty forgiving about technological differences between now and the 60s as far as the look. Or the 90s for 24th centurey stuff. But to change what a lifeform looks like makes no sense at all. I get the smooth vs bumpy forheads because of tv vs movie budgest in the 60s and 1979 for TMP, but the Klingon look is so well established now, I don’t know how you change it. It just doesn’t work. I really really hope they have something in the story to explain the difference.

        • Perplexum

          The new baldies don’t even look all that impressive, certainly not as impressive as the Andorians or Tellarites make up in ENT for example. And that was 10 years ago. So it’s really a bit baffling. They want to make them more threatening, I get that, but they just monsterized them instead. The Klingons overall are still the weakest part of the show. Their scenes always have this Shakespear school play feeling to them.

          • JP

            The way Ent glossed up the Andorians and Tellarites is the absolute best way to update a race from prior decades. But that type of Trek is no more.

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            “Absolute best way” and “Enterprise” should never be mentioned in the same sentence.

          • JP

            I’ll let other people debate that, it’s not really a relevant question anymore.

          • kadajawi

            Enterprise was a great show that didn’t have the time the other shows had. Season 1 and 2 were bad? Yeah, so were season 1 and 2 of TNG. In fact, no episode in ENT was ever as dreadfully bad as the first season of TNG. Season 2 being the better one? Check. Season 3 is actually good? Yup, same here. And season 4 is really, really good? Again. Same thing. ENT season 5 should probably have been even better, or as good as season 4, etc. Unfortunately by the time ENT aired, people a) weren’t as patient anymore with bad shows, and b) people had enough Star Trek.

            The updating of the Andorians was done tastefully. One look and you recognize it’s the same species. Yes, with changes, but you know it’s them. When I look at the new Klingons there’s a dozen species I’d think of, before I reach “ah, they are supposed to be Klingons?”. That’s a bad idea.

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            “Their scenes always have this Shakespeare school play feeling to them.”

            LOL — that was TUC, not DSC. They even spouted Shakespeare in English. So silly!

          • kadajawi

            Erm, that was fun though. And the delivery was perfect. The delivery here does indeed feel like a school play. In Russian. By a group of American students… without any of them knowing Russian. If the actors can’t pull it off, get other actors (it’s not like you see any acting underneath the masks). Or give up and let them talk in English. (And I pretty much only watch shows in their original language, regardless of the language. Subtitles are not an issue).

            Or maybe, just maybe they are letting them talk so slow because that means there is ample time for reading subtitles for those folks who aren’t used to them? (i.e. Americans, for example).

          • Perplexum

            But for real, the acting is strangely limited in all those Klingon scenes. I don’t know if it’s because of the heavy makeup and clothing or because of weird directing, but they mostly stand still or they move and talk very slow and monotone.

        • Eh trek has changed over a dozen races. It does it all the time.

        • JP

          They won’t, just like there’s nothing in the story to explain anything else. It’s a reboot, love it or leave it.

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      • Nowhereman10

        If you actually look carefully at some of the TNG and especially DS9 Klingon makeup, you can, in fact, see that the “dual nostrils” are already there on some klingons. All DSC did was exaggerate many of the features were already there.

        Speaking of which, I really liked that Kol looked different in how his armor was portrayed next to T’Kuvma’s followers. We caught glimpses of that in the holograms representing him and the leaders of the other Great Houses and I’m glad to see him with it in this episode. It’s a nice touch that wasn’t there in the original series and was completely lost, except for the make up differences on head ridges in the TNG-era.

        • To me its clear they got two fans who redesigned the Klingons. Like it or not, if you’re really objective you an see why they did things as they did. They could not use hair, so you end up with the one thing klingons have, ridges everywhere. And as we saw as TNG went on they added more and more ridges, even toes had them ( but oddly not hands). So what you have here is someone who stepped back and thought about klingon evolution, thought about the fact they are apex predators and went from there.

          And yeah, I loved some of those other looks and really want to see more. So tired of the Viking/ biker look.

          • Brian_Brodrick

            Ha! I love it! Klingons as space-going Vikings is a great observation, Shannon! The heavy drinking, the hair, fighting for sport, and making raids opportunistically fits that old trope to a tee.

          • I always called em bikings lol

          • Brian_Brodrick

            Whether people like it or not, I do like the fact that the Klingons are now shown some diversity for a change instead of all wearing the same nearly exact armor/uniform and acting exactly the same with exceptions like Worf.

            But on the subject of the new make up, I found this side-by-side comparison interesting:

            . https://mindreels.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/martok-gowron.jpg

            Gowron and Martok if you look closely both have a ridge above the nostrils that looks very much like the ones we see on Klingons in Discovery, just not quite as pronounced. So it’s a thing that’s been there for quite a long while, Shannon. You can argue whether or not doing so is going too far, but it’s not like it’s never been a thing.

  • JP

    Well, that didn’t take long. So Michael will have to lead a mutiny again for the “right” reasons. Doubtless she will have a contingent of the crew on her side this time. Witness the birth of the “explorer” Starfleet, etc.

    I have realized what Discovery is. It’s a Star Trek pastiche. Signs, symbols, and tropes disassembled and reassembled with a modern veneer. By setting this in the “Prime” past, they are literally overwriting the Trek we knew with this new version. A reboot in all but name. Realizing this, it therefor *had* to be set in the past. At first I thought that came from corporate as some type of mandate, but now I realize, it was absolutely a creative decision. TNG era has outdated in-universe tech by this point comparatively. All of Trek is being rewritten (unless there is some cowardly deus ex machina “reset” at the end of all this).

    And maybe that’s the right thing to do, I’m not making a value judgment with this observation. But at this point it’s undeniable.

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/8121058e37e34ecb5e171c57d04116121cf277d0a8cd67ea8942176cafd2b974.jpg

    • Sad_Trekker

      The comment you have posted is the problem in a nutshell. If you take away the Star Trek symbology and names, this becomes a decent gritty sci-fi show. Unfortunately, it’s supposed to be Star Trek. If this is Star Trek, then I guess it should be called Star Trek: Discovery Into Darkness, since that’s what it most reminds me of.

      • The Science Fiction Oracle

        I read his comment and reached the completely opposite conclusion. This is the modernization and revitalization that this franchise most desperately needs to be relevant in the early 21st century. It’s Star Trek, but updated, and that’s a very good thing.

        A “Berman 2.0” type of show would have fizzled out – thank goodness they did not go in that direction.

        • Sad_Trekker

          No, they went in the completely opposite direction of Berman 2.0, and the fan base is horribly divided because of it. That’s just as bad as Berman 2.0, if not worse.

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            LOL — get back to me 4 years from now when DSC is rolling strong.

            This is exactly what Trek needed to wake up from Star Trek Continues and the tired Berman era stuff.

          • Sad_Trekker

            I’ll be extremely surprised if Discovery lasts for four seasons at this point. They only have a fifteen episode season, and a story arc that is supposed to have a definite end, and they can’t stand on their own without making the central Mary Screwup – I mean Mike – be related to Spock, or have Harry Mudd on, or a mirror universe episode. For something that is so fresh and new, they sure seem to be using a lot of the old favorites out of the gate. It’s almost as if they knew the characters would be so unlikable that they needed to hedge their bets somehow.

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            I’d be extremely surprised if it doesn’t go 7 years or more.

          • Sad_Trekker

            Well, they say there are infinite parallel universes out there. I’m sure in one of them the show will go on for thirty years or more.

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            LOL — good night, and good discussion all around. …

          • Sad_Trekker

            And you too – you do have some good points! Take care.

          • JP

            The main point I want to get across is that thinking of it in terms of “Berman 2.0 vs Something New” is not the complete picture. The exact same could be accomplished by setting this 80 years post-Nemesis with new races, new effects, new storytelling devices, etc.

            But by purposely re-writing the history of Trek, they are doing something MUCH bolder & more brazen. Whereas the JJ films were careful to place themselves in an alternate timeline and preserve all that had come previously, we are now not worrying about such trifles and are overwriting Trek as it has been up until now.

            Again, even the TNG-era stories we all know are virtually outdated and erased. Imagine how the Trek universe would look 100 years after Discovery. Even more “alien.”

            So the frame of the convo I am looking to have is not “Berman 2.0 vs Something New” but about the literal re-writing of Trek from the ground up. It’s a reboot in every sense of the word.

          • SpaceCadet

            You’re making a judgment on how long this series lasts after only 4 episodes??? Did you give up on watching TNG after its first 4 episodes? Because it couldn’t possibly get any better, right?

          • Alex Gunn

            How people are today. I grew with all the 24th century shows as they aired and back then it took seasons for shows to hit their stride. TNG and DS9 didn’t hit their stride until season 3 and Voyager until season 4. Personally I’m just happy to have Trek back.

          • SpaceCadet

            Agreed on call counts. You know, I feel the exact same way. I feel like my 8 year old self again when I couldn’t wait for the next new Star Trek: The Next Generation episode to come on on Saturday evening. What a great time to be alive!

          • DC Forever

            Exactly!

          • DC Forever

            That’s what seems very diseneguous about his comments. TNG was much weaker than this through 4 episodes, yet did he stop watching it then? Of course not.

            It sounds like he had already predetermined that he was not going to like this series.

          • SpaceCadet

            Right. He said he canceled his service after the 4th episode. Uh huh. Even if that’s isn’t the case some people are so quick to judge. This is the best or near best (it can be argued that TOS was pretty solid out of the gate) run of early episodes from any Trek series. I remember when TOS fans wouldn’t even give TNG a chance before they were eventually won over so this is nothing new but you’d think people would learn to take a wait and see approach by now even if they aren’t liking what they see so far.

          • Alan Light

            You’re entitled to comment and let your opinions be known…kudos…but it is curious you’ve canceled your subscription yet spend so much time analyzing a show you’re not going to watch…odd

          • He also joined last night, under this name anyhow.

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            Do you find it odd that he has now kind of “disappeared”? I wonder if he was sock-puppeting,and the mods cancelled his account?

          • No clue, but he was not looking for an actual discussion.

        • JP

          The main point I want to get across is that thinking of it in terms of “Berman 2.0 vs Something New” is not the complete picture. The exact same could be accomplished by setting this 80 years post-Nemesis with new races, new effects, new storytelling devices, etc.

          But by purposely re-writing the history of Trek, they are doing something MUCH bolder & more brazen. Whereas the JJ films were careful to place themselves in an alternate timeline and preserve all that had come previously, we are now not worrying about such trifles and are overwriting Trek as it has been up until now.

          Again, even the TNG-era stories we all know are virtually outdated and erased. Imagine how the Trek universe would look 100 years after Discovery. Even more “alien.”

          So the frame of the convo I am looking to have is not “Berman 2.0 vs Something New” but about the literal re-writing of Trek from the ground up. It’s a reboot in every sense of the word.

  • Aaron

    This, at least for me, seemed to be the first episode that genuinely had Star Trek vibe to it. All of the characters, short of Landry (RIP) were a bit softer around the edges and seemed to gel with one another a bit better. Even Lorca came across as less dark and mysterious – showing Michael his “weapons locker” (for lack of a better word…), it even seems like the rest of the crew knows about it (at least on some level). I really liked the investigation into the giant tardigrade, and the conflict b/w Landry and Michael about how to approach it was very classic Trek. And, based on how the tardigrade reacted in when the ship “jumped”, and on next week’s preview, the argument of how to treat the tardigrade will continue. I really liked Saru’s interactions with Michael – I was somewhat surprised that he was, rightfully so, rather annoyed and taken aback that she was still around. In retrospect, I shouldn’t have been surprised. His begrudging respect for her only goes so far, and he still very much blames her for Captain Georgiou’s death (again, rightfully so). It was also nice to see Captain Georgiou again, even if it was just a recording. It’s a shame that her character was killed off so quickly, I think should would have made an awesome captain.

    From a VFX standpoint, the series continues to impress. I especially liked how the outer edge of the saucer rotated before a jump, which also explains why the saucer is separated in the way that it is. That part of the design was bugging me, as it looked cool, but seemed completely non-functional, and if anything made the ship seem fragile. If I had one complaint about the VFX, it would be that scenes can seem too busy at times, and it’s hard to make out exactly what is going on on the screen. During one of the scenes with the Klingons, there was an exterior shot of T’Kvuma’s ship drifting in the asteroid field, and another Klingon ship warped it. I could tell a ship warped in by the sound of it, but it took me a min to actually spot the ship on the screen. I wouldn’t mind if some of the VFX shots lingered a bit more and had a few less items in them. During the brief battle b/w the Discovery and the Klingons BOP, I wouldn’t have mind lingering on one of the BoP, just to get a better look at it – because at the moment I really can’t tell what the new BoP actually look like!

    Finally, and this is just something I’ll have to get used to, I still don’t like the lighting of the show. Specifically, things are just not that colorful. The Starfleet uniforms are largely navy blue, black and either silver or gold, the Discovery in general is mostly shades of blue and grey, and T’Kuvma’s ship was so heavily amber tinted that it drowned out the other colors. Say what you will about the Kelvin-verse, but things were at least colorful! Hopefully as the series progresses and matures, the lighting and coloring will evolve with it.

  • John Bush

    Welcome to the newest version of Battlestar: Galactica. A couple of tribbles and recycled sound effects don’t make it Trek. However, it has been somewhat entertaining. Lorca’s a maniac, and everyone appears to be walking on eggshells. Whatever happened to exploring strange new worlds and all of that other “we’re much too sophisticated for that kind of nonsense” that made Trek unique? No wonder the suits got nervous about Axanar.

    • SpaceCadet

      They’re at war. Not really a priority to go exploring when you’re at war. Also, we’re still exploring and discovering new life and concepts anyway with the tardigrade and space spores.

  • Quonk

    A week or so ago, I commented on how the approximately spherical part of the Discovery’s primary hull (i.e. the bridge part) reminded me of my showerhead. I went on to make a remark about the “USS Showerhead” still being preferable as an association to the “USS PIzzacutter“, referring to the Freedom-class kitbash model of TNG…

    I don’t know whether I should feel stupid or gratified now…

    • mr joyce

      you should feel both..

      will you be buying either a showerhead or pizzacutter if it is uss discovery shaped? i would, lol

      • Quonk

        Well, it’s the other way ’round for me: I have a showerhead that reminds me of the USS Discovery (that’s why I originally brought up the point in the first place – it was actually more than two weeks ago, in a comment regarding this article: http://trekcore.com/blog/2017/09/eaglemoss-previews-uss-shenzhou-and-star-trek-discovery-ships/ ) nad I guess I also have a pizzacutter lying around somewhere… so, no need to buy stuff reminding me of something if it reminds me of it anyway.

  • ButtonShoes

    This show has gone from bad to worse. What is this show supposed to be? Equinox: The Series? Because it sure feels like it has that kind of perverse ethos. I see the surface of Discovery’s saucer rings spinning and the first thing I think of is “Chevron One: Encoded.” None of this feels like Star Trek. And none of the people writing this show have any idea what Star Trek is. Oh, and I don’t know what those Klingon ships were supposed to be, but there is no way in hell that they are Birds of Prey. NO. WAY.

    • Reign1701A

      Honestly Equinox: The Series likely would’ve been a more compelling series than Voyager. I liked Voyager, but it largely abandoned its own premise (struggling with limited resources) early on.

      • SpaceCadet

        I’ve thought the same thing before when Voyager was originally airing. The ship should have been falling apart, with damage appearing on the exterior and not shiny as new every week, and with a lack of personnel because of the death toll with no way to replenish the crew.

        • VOY had such a good concept. The only time it looked like it should was the year of hell.

          • SpaceCadet

            Right. And of course that episode pressed the magic reset button at the end. If VOY was done today with the same crew that’s doing DSC, it would undoubtedly be much better and realistic.

          • Agreed, I mean just the idea of joining the two crews could have been magic! It would have been cool to see the ship modified and changed overtime. Heck some of the borg changes should have stayed!

          • TUP

            Yup. The Berman era group just had no desire to embrace it’s own concepts. The only time they earned their pay was developing the IDEA. When it came time to execute, they just dumped out the TNG script trash and changed the names.

          • I agree, it had so much to work with and it does have a few gems. But really, they wasted it.

  • Tom Cruise Never Phones It IN

    Trek of Thrones, so trendy.

  • Alex Gunn

    Enjoyed the episode and enjoying the series as a whole but there were a few glaring points in this episode that stuck out:

    Darwin Award Moment: Not since Tasha Yar has a death been so pointless. With stupidity like that she deserved to die.

    Klingons / Shenzou: Completely unbelievable that the Empire would leave an advanced vessel with cloaking capabilities adrift for 6 months. Also a tad strange why Shenzou was scuttled by self destruct. I can understand why Starfleet might not want to recover the ships lost but I’m sure they would make sure they didn’t fall into enemy hands. Those criticisms aside I didn’t mind that they ate Georgiou and could see them doing it in normal circumstances to defile and terrorize the enemy.

    Corvan II: Discovery seemingly jumped away after saving the mining colony. After winning the battle why didn’t they render aid as Starfleet reinforcements were still some way away?

    Like I said those points didn’t work for me but I enjoyed the reveals around “Ripper”.

    • GhostLoveScore

      I feel bad for the Ripper. They should release him. The worst part was when he was in the chamber, it was hurting him. And later, he didn’t want to approach Burnham. He knew she was there but didn’t do anything to stop it.
      I know it’s silly, that’s a creature that doesn’t exist, but I still feel bad for him.

      • James

        I think that was the point. Starfleet won’t abuse a sentient life form, and that’s why the technology is banned. Equinox in Voyager explores similar themes.

        • Jayne Harris

          I’m sorry but this episode was a step too far for me. I found it very upsetting and I just can’t watch a show that is apparently condoning torture of animals (real or otherwise). So after 50 years of being a huge ST fan – no more for me.

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            Did it occur to you that your reaction is probably exactly what the writers are looking for, and which will play out through the season?

            Yea, we are supposed to be upset and shocked. That’s the point!

          • I think the fact folks are so shocked shows its hitting all the right spots.

          • Jayne Harris

            So they condone torturing an animal just to shock people – way to go STD. The story may well play out through the season but it’ll do it without me & I know several people who feel the same way.

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            That’s just ridiculous. If you are that obtuse, then yes, please discontinue watching the show and give yourself a gold star of self-congratulation.

          • Jayne Harris

            I’m not being obtuse the behaviour in Devil in the Dark like Voyagers Equinox was ultimately condemned. That hasn’t happened in this show and until it does I will be awarding myself lots of gold stars and congratulating myself on sticking to my principles.
            By the way – don’t bother replying again as I’m unfollowing this thread & won’t see it!

          • Keith Melton

            I think your abbreviating the show as STD instead of the appropriate DSC shows you have your mind made about the show already.

          • Jayne Harris

            I’ll use whatever abbreviations I like thank you very much STD imho is appropriate.

          • Keith Melton

            Use what ever you like sure, but referring to the show with such a negative connotation just shows your prejudice against it. Which means your opinions are probably not worth much.

          • James

            Awww Jane. Burnham clearly feels bad about it, in a way that the Equinox crew did not. I’m sure this is why the technology is banned in the future – because it hurts the Tardigrade.

          • GhostLoveScore

            Remember that these things are happening today in real life. I bet in the end there will be a lesson for humanity that we should stop torturing and killing animals.

          • Salvador Nogueira

            Let’s have in mind no one knew what was going to happen when the Tardigrade-like creature was beamed inside the reaction cube.

          • GhostLoveScore

            You are right. Maybe now that they know they will not use it anymore.

          • TUP

            This is the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard.

        • GhostLoveScore

          I guess that like in all Star Trek in the end they will do the right thing and not torture him anymore and ban the technology. I would love to see that happen in the middle of the war, not at its end. That would show that humans in that era would take risk of losing the war and not hurting anyone. I bet that will happen, ST was always uplifting in the end. Even in Equinox the captain in the end sees what they are doing was wrong.

    • TUP

      We saw pretty quickly why Landry seemed like a one dimensional character. Its a shame they didnt make an effort to give her some depth so her death mattered. There was that hint of relationship with Lorca.

      I might have considered a scene with the two of them in bed to show their softer side (even as they would surely discuss the harsh realities of war)…you could then give us a lingering moment of Lorca looking at her as she dies. It would humanize both of them and provide more depth to lorca as a commander who immediately turns away and goes right back to business.

      Regarding destroying Schenzhou, did they have time? Perhaps self destruct was offline when they took to the escape pods. perhaps there werent enough senior officers around to initiate it (Michael’s command authority was seemingly suspended).

  • medlab1701

    I’ve been a Star Trek fan for 50 years. I’ve watched it all, including the fan series. It has been hard at times, accepting change and suspending disbelief, especially as each new incarnation of Trek has better technology and effects than the one that preceded it. Having said that, I really think that the amount of criticism this series is receiving is not warranted. I can hardly watch the first two seasons of TNG, yet episodes in seasons 3 thru 7 are among my favorites. Likewise, I love TOS seasons 1 and 2, but sometimes can’t stand to watch season 3 episodes like “Spock’s Brain” because they are so stupid. I love Star Trek, and because I love Star Trek, I am just happy there is new Star Trek to watch, and I am willing to give it time to hit its stride, unlike so many judgemental trolls out here. Honestly, I loved watching the saucer spin because at least it gave reasoning to the design somewhat. I also predict this is a lot to do with Section 31, which is cool because I don’t mind seeing that element of Starfleet explored in a series, just like people love how the Klingon culture was explored in TNG, and how DS9 dealt less with stories set on ship and more on a space station and mysticism. Its STAR TREK people! If you don’t support it, don’t complain about the lack of it produced!

    • The Science Fiction Oracle

      Great post !!!!!

    • Eric Watson

      I could not agree with you more. Thanks for posting that. I haven’t been alive for 50 years yet, but I’ve been a Star Trek fan since reruns of the animates series. I remember loving it as a kid of maybe 5ish. I remember seeing Star Trek 4 in the theater with my mom at age 7. I was hooked from then on. I became a die hard Trekkie in the 90s.

      I don’t think it is fair to judge the show at least until the 1st season is over. No one knows where it is going. They might have a good reason for the new Klingon look related to the augment viris from ENT. We might learn more of the Captain’s motives and like him more, or maybe not. We just don’t have all the info yet. If I were to have created ny own Star Trek show it would be a lot different, sure, but the show is in the hands of talented people that gush about their love of Trek, and I have no reason to doubt them. I am very pleased so far and LOVE that I don’t know where the show willl head. We all knew Picard and crew would be fine each week (sorry Tasha.) We all knew Voyager would get home. We all knew the Dominion War would be won. With this show, we get to have suspense and wonder. We know the war with the Klingons will end. But a victory? A defeat? An unstable treaty? Will Discovery blow up? Who lives and dies? We don’t know. That is a good thing.

      • Brian_Brodrick

        We know it’ll be an unstable peace of some sort given that the Federation and Klingons attempt to go to full war in Errand of Mercy after a break down in negotiations. So this hot war has to end sometime in the next 10 years and then settle into a cold war footing.

    • Kirksdeadjim

      Agreed.To hell with the trolls.Im enjoying the new Star Trek.If they are not then stick to watching the old stuff and STFU.

      • I do not get them either. There are lots of shows I dislike. You don’t see me trolling thier fan forums.

        • Brian_Brodrick

          No one should be against anyone with a genuine complaint, even if it is a subjective one and I’ve scanned a few good criticisms about Discovery. But yeah, someone just popping up to say “It Sux, cause it’s not muh TOS” or just making up a complaint should have better things to do.

      • Snap

        I guess it depends on what you are considering “trolls.” If you are referring to those who bash it for the sake of bashing it and refuse to see anything positive about it while feeling the need to complain about it at every turn then, yeah, they need to move on.

        If, however, it’s somebody who voices ANY form of criticism, no matter what, then that’s not a very Trek-like attitude to take.

        • TUP

          I am critical of many things. Feel free to read my initial review of the premiere. No one has called me a troll or called me names. We discuss the pros and cons, the likes and dislikes. Sometimes a different perspective changes my mind. Sometimes it doesnt.

          mature adults discuss. Trolls dont.

    • Snap

      I just have to ask, if it isn’t acceptable to criticise the series why is it acceptable to shower it with praise? If it cannot be judged before a certain point, that should apply to the positive as well as the negative. Criticism isn’t a bad thing. Bashing, though, isn’t productive. The two are not the same.

      • The Science Fiction Oracle

        Here’s the problem — there have been several posters here on “the critical side” who continuously troll (and sock-puppet) on DSC, thereby poisoning the critical side of the discussion for good fans like you who bring up some valid issues on the show.

        In contrast, do we EVER seen any group of trolls who take the positive viewpoint of DSC on this site? No, we don’t, or if it’s happened, it’s very rare. Why is it that a reasonably sized group of critical fans feels the need to do such middle-school level hating nonsense on DSC. Unfortunately, it get’s considered with legitimate negative opinions by you and others here — people get fatigued with all of that out-of-control negativity with the trolling hi-jinks

        • kadajawi

          I disagree. The levels of positivity on this site is almost sickening at times. Negative points aren’t brought up that often. I was very negative on episodes 1 and 2 (which just weren’t well written, well acted or well directed… if this was where Fuller was going, if this was the episodes he had the most influence on, then good riddance!), much more positive (though not fully) on episode 3, and a bit more mixed on episode 4.

          • Brian_Brodrick

            I’ve been pretty forgiving myself on the first two episodes mainly because they are important backstory in what is a serialized show, not an episodic one and it is kind of unique and interesting in that the show has done this where other Star Trek series before it have not.

          • kadajawi

            Someone else (maybe the Trekyards guys? Or was it Midnight’s Edge (which IMHO lost it in their episode 3 review…) brought up the idea that the two part opener could have been a mid-season episode. So basically start with the actual pilot. We’d be introduced to her as a prisoner, we know she is a mutineer… but why? What did she do? We’re told she is a great officer, had a great career to look forward to, and then… she went to jail for mutiny. We’re right in the middle of the war, trying to piece together everything. One by one we see Michael do good things. She’s obviously a good person, smart, we understand why she was supposed to become a great captain. And then comes the two parter. Now we understand what happened. How the war started. Some minor edits may be necessary to the whole, but it should work and be engaging that way.

            And from a business standpoint… the first episode was mostly set-up, little action, and it just wasn’t that good an introduction of the character IMHO. We are being told she is great, but we are shown a first officer that just isn’t that great. And then she commits her crime. Many were scratching their head why exactly she would be so great, cause she wasn’t. The second pilot seems much better reviewed, closer to Star Trek (for the fans) and it tells a complete story. It’s not the boring first half of an episode. Who knows if people were turned off because of that, I mean… if I know I only get to watch the first half of an episode, am I going to watch it? I might not even try the show because of that, whereas if it’s a complete episode I’d be like… ok, at least I’ll get to watch an entire episode, and see if it is any decent.

            Anyway, so… in this order, they could also show the two-parter on TV. Reviews will be out by then, hopefully positive, and the two-parter is shown right after the second pilot is aired again. This is the second entry point, for people who are intrigued after all the positive feedback of their friends, and want to give it a try. If they like it they’ll sign up, catch up and then continue with everyone else.

            Had I lived in the US, I wouldn’t be watching Discovery. Had I even tried watching the first episode, that would have turned me off completely. Since I don’t pay anything extra for it, I got to watch episode 3, which got me intrigued enough to continue for the time being. (As an aside, IIRC Netflix once did a study on how many episodes it takes for viewers to get hooked. Hint: It was more than 1.)

      • TUP

        Lots of us heap plenty of criticism on the show when its warranted. For us to say its a perfect television show would be silly. Even the greatest dramatic TV show of all time (in my opinion), The Sopranos was far from perfect.

        But the handful of whiners ONLY rip the show as the pure embodiment of evil. So its ridiculous, undermines any relevant criticisms they might have and becomes noise.

        Many of those people decided they would hate the show before they saw it and continue to tell us how they hate it, in essence, they said, *surprise*, they were right. Its nonsense.

        And you notice, some of those people dont post here anymore (not by their choice I assume). So their incessant bs’ery got so bad they were removed.

    • JP

      TNG didn’t deserve to get made past its first season. It seems like CBS will be able to continue to pay for Discovery episodes so long as the international licensing continues to underwrite it.

      We’ll see!

      • kadajawi

        The international licensing only continues to underwrite it if it is successful. What helps is that people like me get to watch it “for free”. I’m paying Netflix for Marvel and some other shows. I would not pay for All Access, but with Netflix I’m paying it anyway for other stuff, so I might as well watch Discovery. That way there is more time for them to explain away the disturbing things, and to capture the audience. I know had I only gotten to watch the very first episode… or even the first two, for free, that would have been it. Done. Couldn’t care less.

        And I’m glad Gates McFadden left the show after season 1. Diane Muldaur brought ACTING to the show. It almost feels like everyone in the cast saw themselves played against a wall, and took acting lessons/started giving a shit. Or perhaps it’s the writing, which even hurt the acting in season 1 and 2. But Muldaur didn’t have a different writer to write her scenes, did she? And she could make good use of the lines.

      • Brian_Brodrick

        It was wise that Roddenberry and Paramount back then made the choice not to run TNG on the existing networks but instead ran the episodes in syndication.

        • Starshipdown

          This is very true. TNG very likely would not have survived the Writer Guild strike during the second season had it been on a regular network.

    • Cameron

      Couldn’t agree more. It’s Star Trek people get over it. I’ve been really enjoying Discovery, it’s just what the franchise needs to survive another 50 years, making TV just for core fans is not sustainable and will just slowly kill Trek forever. We should embrace this new take and enjoy it for what it is. Every new Star Trek series has been criticised by fans when introduced just remember the criticism TNG had when introduced yet people now consider TNG as some of the best Trek. I love Star Trek and thug Discovery is bloody amazing.

      • Keith Melton

        “thug Discovery”
        What the hell is that supposed to mean?

        • A_Warrior_of_Marley

          Just imagine the ship with lots of bling and tattoos and there you have it.

          • Keith Melton

            What an immature and borderline racist statement.

          • A_Warrior_of_Marley

            Someone’s easily triggered.

          • Keith Melton

            Not in the least. Just feel a civilized discussion has no place for such ignorance.

          • A_Warrior_of_Marley

            Quick! Run to your safe safe space! No one can have a sense of humor!

          • Keith Melton

            There is a difference between having a sense of humor and being an outright racist asshole. For a Star Trek fan one would think you would understand that.

          • A_Warrior_of_Marley

            As a Star Trek fan, I’m not a pretentious snob who thinks they have the right to tell others what to think and as a Trek fan you’ve done a poor job in remembering this all-important lesson from decades ago:

            LINCOLN: What a charming negress. Oh, forgive me, my dear. I know in my time some used that term as a description of property.

            UHURA: But why should I object to that term, sir? You see, in our century we’ve learned not to fear words.

            You are afraid of words and as such they have power over you.

          • Nowhereman10

            *Slow claps* Well done. Very well done.

          • DC Forever

            The only thing worse than trolls are trolls that self-flagellate themselves for fake-ass internet “victories” of bullying people out of a conversation.

            Wait a minute; I forgot that the truly worst thing about such trolls is when they actually start to believe that they are clever and funny.

          • Nowhereman10

            The only bully here is you, DC and your sock puppet Oracle. I wonder which one is which? Also, you haven’t addressed the fact that Melton bravely ran, ran away when he got knocked off his white horse.

          • DC Forever

            Reporting this to the mods as well.

          • Nowhereman10

            Go for it. I haven’t done anything wrong. But you clearly stepped in here to take up the white knight mantle for Melton after he bravely ran away.

          • DC Forever

            Nothing online is more low down-low despicable that seeing two posters congratulate themselves for successfully cyber-bullying another participant out of a discussion.

          • Nowhereman10

            Something, I’ll note that you and Oracle have teamed up to do multiple times, BTW, assuming you aren’t the same person.

          • Keith Melton

            I am not afraid of words. I just feel we as a society aren’t to that lofty goal that Roddenberry hoped for. Your continued ignorance in this subject is proof enough.

            Instead of looking back at what you said and thought about how ignorant, sophomoric and racist your statement was, you doubled down on your hate. Good job. Things won’t change for the better until we all make a difference.

          • A_Warrior_of_Marley

            No hate involved and remember, I didn’t create the thug culture that I mocked. It is you that has failed to learn from Roddenberry or any other Trek creator’s hope.

            And if you can’t laugh at something, then it isn’t worth it and the fact that you have to keep doubling down on your moral high horse shows what a fragile man you are.

          • Keith Melton

            Talk to the wind all you want child. Blocked now so I no longer need see your drivel.

          • Nowhereman10

            Very good. You did indeed do as Warrior suggested, you ran off to your safe space when things got too hot for you.

          • A_Warrior_of_Marley

            It’s so easy to troll extreme lefties, no challenge, really.

          • Keith Melton

            I am still here. Just no need to listen to a racist asshole. Adding you to block list as well. Technology is wonderful.

          • Nowhereman10

            And indeed Brave SIr Melton Bravely ran away.

          • DC Forever

            Keith, I reccomed you use the Disqus feature to report this “targeted harassment” to the mods.

          • Nowhereman10

            Brave, Brave Sir Melton. He bravely ran away. Brave, Brave Sir Melton…

          • Nowhereman10

            People like Keith here is the reason that Mel Brooks is firmly of the belief that a movie like Blazing Saddles could never be made again.

          • Keith Melton

            In this day and age? More than likely, a movie like Blazing Saddles could not be made. No studio would finance that to happen. I find Blazing Saddles to be an hilarious movie but also a deep commentary about how racist the united state was, is and continues to be.

          • A_Warrior_of_Marley

            But you’re so easily triggered by simple humor, so you’d be out there protesting it and saying how everyone should boycott it.

          • Keith Melton

            Your comment and attempt at a shitty joke is hardly upon an equal level with the written words of Mel Brooks and Richard Pryor.

          • Nowhereman10

            Look at at Keith go! White Knight awaaaaay!

          • DC Forever

            Keith, this “Nowhereman” poster has a history here of questionable posts, not to mention that every time you show the guy real info on why he is wrong on something, he quickly goes into spin doctor mode to avoid responsibility for what he got wrong.

          • Keith Melton

            Thanks DC. He’s on my blocklist now so I am good.

          • Nowhereman10

            High Oracle! Are you still sock puppeting? And what info was shown here that I’m wrong on, Oracle?

          • DC Forever

            Sorry, but I just reported you to mods for that, troll.

          • Nowhereman10

            Reported you for harrassment, troll.

          • DC Forever

            Now that is finally clever and funny!

          • Stop it.

          • A_Warrior_of_Marley

            You should also tell DC Forever the same thing since he seems to be intent on carrying on with whatever feud these two have with each other.

          • mr joyce

            He’s not the only one to report you and your sidekick though…

          • A_Warrior_of_Marley

            If you did, Joyce, I’d have to say I’m disappointed in you to hear that and since the joke I made hasn’t been deleted, nor has any of my comments, then neither is in violation of Trekcore or Disqus’ TOS.

          • A_Warrior_of_Marley

            How is Nowhereman wrong, DC?

    • Gazelle

      Complain, Why not? The show is for us after all right?!? Well and to make CBS and Paramount money of course! They have such a strangle hold on the Series that “producers” Pro and amature alike (non network affiliated) can barely produce a series/movie now. I site the fan film Axanar as an example of which the producers were so called friends with the people at Paramount and spoke on a regular basis. When the Axanar trailer was released (extremely well done) it frightened the big wheels at Paramount so much that they filed a lawsuit. I think there is room for complaint and further I think If we the fans don’t police what is being produced it merely lays the groundwork for more chaos.

      • Starshipdown

        I think you’re confusing the Axanar fan production people with those of Star Trek Continues people who have a genuine affiliation with the official Star Trek production folks and the two groups have worked together at times, like the donation of the helm station targeting viewer prop STC donated for temporary use in the making of the Enterprise episodes In a Mirror, Darkly.

        Axanar was troubled long before Paramount and CBS stepped in:

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=na1gT3CcVUQ

        IMHO, based on Gossett’s comments, I can’t really blame CBS for going forward with the lawsuit.

        • Brian_Brodrick

          Nice find there. Gossett’s point about Axanar monetizing their production through merchandise is a very important difference between them (as well as the funding of a major studio in the process) and other fan films. So based on what he says here, I have to agree that CBS let Alec Peters and Axanar Productions off rather lightly all things considered when they could have rightly taken them to the cleaners for everything..

      • Your Worst Nightmare

        I think its time to get over Axanar.

      • Axanar scared no one.What they saw was a thief trying to steal thier IP and hammered the con man.

        • Starshipdown

          Calling Alec Peters a ‘con man’ may be a bit harsh, but he did still overstep the bounds of what constituted a fan versus a professional, money-making venture.

  • startrekker1701

    I don’t hate it, but I wouldn’t say I like Discovery. It’s just a bit… dull. In other series most of today’s episode would have been an ethical debate about whether it’s right to use the creature or not for travel. The price of ethics in a time of war etc. Nada. Not one mention, worryingly not even a consideration. I think back to episodes like TNG’s I, Borg.

    Although I know they’re going for a different dynamic and the focus isn’t the Captain and First Officer I get literally nothing between Lorca and Saru, which actually feels quite jarring given Trek lore and the basic concept of the chain of command.

    And boy did I roll my eyes when the Security Chief bit the dust. Ridiculous. But also disappointing as I liked her hard-ass character. It felt like tokenism to say ‘anyone can die at any time’ like Game of Thrones.

    Klingons are well portrayed but the makeup really is horrific – they’re over engineered. Was glad to see something akin to a Bird of Prey in this episode though.

    Special effects remain exquisite and the USS Discovery is starting to grow on me. If only the ship and the show would live up to the name.

    • Keith Melton

      I would still say hold off on your specific criticism until the end of the season. This is the first time Star Trek has had a bigger single story arc (DS9 is a bit different as the arcs were built too and Voyager used the magic reset button way to much to) tying everything together. Each episode builds off of each other (whereas Enterprise had their big arcs, but still had episodes of the week) Once the full first chapter is told, then that whole lens should be applied and see if you feel the same way. YMMV.

      • startrekker1701

        I’ll keep watching and I get the whole arc thing – it’s the way many great shows are set out these days. It’s just not grabbing me and doesn’t seem to have Star Trek’s heart. But if I compare it to other season 1 episodes from Trek, it could certainly be worse!

        • Keith Melton

          I just see it as a big Star Trek novel. And as to that heart, I find plenty of it all over the place. But I don’t want “another tale of the perfect federation” I am loving this story that is shaping Kirk’s time drastically.

          • startrekker1701

            I don’t think the Federation has ever been perfect. For me though, I guess I don’t feel these people are much further on than we are now.

            I’ll hang in there though 🙂

    • The Science Fiction Oracle

      Putting the cart before the horse. I sense the season-long story arc is going to cover exactly those ethical issues (and more) you are complaining are not being covered here.

      You are making an apple to oranges to comparison — you are comparing one-off episodes of Trek series where the writers have to “get the message out” in 45 minutes, with this 15 hour long story.

      • Yep, its a chapter per ep

      • startrekker1701

        Maybe so – but these should be fundamental red lines for the crew and addressed in this episode not afterthoughts down the line.

        • Keith Melton

          Why exactly must it be addressed in the exact same episode? As with Ripper…we met it in 103, dealt with it more in 104. So why wouldn’t the story surrounding it continue to 105 and beyond?

  • Neill Stringer

    I am assuming holographic communication tech and holographic mirrors are tech that will be abandoned in a few years since TOS used real mirrors.

    • Nope, its just no longer the 1960s.

      • Neill Stringer

        Yes, I hate that excuse, I get that, but all the other shows used mirrors

        • Keith Melton

          I just see it this way: if they had the tech to make the show that way back then, they would have. Anything that is “off” between Discovery and TOS (or any TNG and later)I just apply the Discovery filter back to it and am happy.

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            Exactly.

            Like what Roddenberry said about his and Westmore’s completely redesigned Klingons for the TMP:

            “Consider the change like this is what I intended them to be all along. Don’t pay attention to the man behind the curtain”

        • Yeah, and its not the 90s either. Why would you not use holograms?

          • Snap

            Wheels have had essentially the same design for thousands of years. Why are we still using wheels for our vehicles, surely after more than 6000 years something better had to have come along.

            Why do the chairs have to use the floor as a support? Why can’t they just have antigrav tech so they remain in place regardless of the weight of the person sitting in them?

            Why do the ships still have nacelles? This isn’t the 60s anymore, so a goofy nacelle aesthetic should be ditched for a glowing orb embedded in the hull where it isn’t vulnerable.

            I have to agree, I hate it when people just say “it isn’t the 60s anymore” as a blanket excuse for anything which doesn’t fly. It’s as bad as when trolls come in and just bash things for the sake of bashing them and just carried an air of condescension at the person they are used against.

          • Keith Melton

            Yes and no.
            Think about CRT monitors. Before flat screens became the norm, CRT tubes were all we had. So and “future scifi” (trek included) used them all the time. Yet we now know that wouldn’t happen so seeing a CRT screen in a modern piece of sci-fi would date it and look out of place.
            While I am not a fan of the holograms they do provide a bit of future tech to make it be a bit more futuristic.

            As to your nacelle comment, this is still Star Trek. Changing a something as big as that would be a huge change to the fundamental of the rest of Trek (it would be like if new Star Wars has light whips instead of sabers.)

            A shiny different communication (that makes for more dynamic television vs. just another view screen) changes nothing on a grand level.

          • And some folks dont use old fashion and easy to smash mirriors. Its not saying sonone has them, but its silly to demand the show use 1960 tech

          • Snap

            That doesn’t even make sense. Do you see any holographic “mirrors” today? No, mirrors are modern tech. Why do you insist on throwing out “60s tech” whenever someone has even a legitimate criticism?

          • Because TOS is outdated 60s tech

    • Eric Watson

      Yes, just like everyone abandoned metal razors when electric shavers came around. If someone in 10 years uses a metal razor, that will obviously mean we gave up all electric razors.

    • The Science Fiction Oracle

      1960’s production values and cultural-technology sensibilities are DOA on this show, and thank goodness for that!

    • TUP

      TNG had holograms but didnt use them for mirrors. So the tech wasnt abandoned. It was expanded upon.

      But I also agree. The mirror bugged me. One of those small nitpicks that I can be annoyed about because I like most everything else.

  • MSc79

    While I overally enjoyed the episode itself (I’d rate it a 7.8 out of 10), there are a few filming and sfx technique/design choices for the series that I personally have trouble of getting used to;

    – Although I can endure it, I’m not exactly a fan of the, nowadays often used, shaky cam technique (it’s somewhat uneasy on the eyes).
    – The pacing during ship (sfx) battles is a bit too high/chaotic for my taste. Often I have difficulty keeping track of what’s going on (including the path of the phaser/blaster shots). Although sfx quality is certainly top-notch in DISC, I prefer the way battle scenes were presented in the older (post-TOS) trek series (with regards to better scene overview coupled to a relatively lower pace). I’m just wondering if maybe there was more room for some middle ground here.

    I do love:
    – The character interactions and overal acting quality.
    – The story line.
    – The eye for detail (including the ‘canon easter-eggs’)
    – High production values.

    Don’t get me wrong, I do like the series so far, but the above listed (minor) caveats are distracting me a little from fully embracing it.

    • TUP

      Ive seen reviews mention the camera pan in of the bridge and how its getting over-used. Its always the same…angled camera zooms in to the viewscreen and slowly rights itself as we get into the bridge.

      The TOS films are being played on my movie channels a lot and one of them (I cant recall which but I think it was TMP) had a camera zoom over the front of the saucer towards the bridge and it was a straight shot and SLOW.

      So it showed the magistry of the ship and the slower pan created a sense of scope to the ship and allowed time to admire it as a remarkable feat of engineering. In fact, the slower pans of the ships in most of the Trek films really do indicate a sense of large scale….even if they are moving fast, they seem slow because they are big.

      This fast paced, herky jerky all over zoom in, pan here style doesnt let us take in the beauty and engineering of the ships.

      SLOW DOWN!

      • startrekker1701

        It’s the age old argument – are starships fighter jets or submarines 🙂

  • Perplexum

    That was the best episode so far and nice to see that the tardigrade creature had indeed a purpose. Some clunky writing here and there still, but overall they continued the story of the last episode in a satisfactory and very trekkie way. Who had the time to take away the telescope, though?

    • TUP

      The telescope thing struck me too. It stands to reason since we saw a telescope in Philippa’s ready room and she sent one to Michael as a prized possession that it;s the SAME telescope. But in reality, there is nothing to indicate that is the case.

      Although, the Klingon saying there was nothing of value on the bridge or in her ready room could be seen as a reinforcement of values. ie. the telescope was gone and thus “nothing of value” or the telescope was still there but the Klingons dont value it (nor should they) but WE (or more specifically, Philippa and Michael) value it.

      So it COULD be a different telescope. In fact, it almost has to be.

  • Walter Kovacs

    absolutely LOVE the series so far! one little thing that kinda bugged me in this episode was near the end, in the “battle” against the Klingon ships, someone on the bridge said “they’re 500 kilometers out”, and then you see the Klingon ships like a few hundred meters away from the Discovery. do the writers of the series really not understand what a kilometer is? 😀 it’s almost as much as a mile. 500 kilometers is pretty much the entire length of England, from north to south. are we supposed to take those exterior shots of the ships as “symbolic”? 😀 to be fair, i think i remember similar errors on TNG or some of the other series as well. i wonder what keeps going wrong there 😀

  • Snap

    After a day to digest the episode, especially free from my blunder concerning its near death experience with a star, I feel this was a good showing for the young series and it is difficult to believe that it is the same show we got with the first two episodes.

    The only things which still bother me are the instances of tech which are blatantly too advanced for the time period, and that being the hologram “mirror” which Burnham was using after replicating her uniform. Once again, if this was intended to be its own take on Star Trek, unconnected to everything else, then all bets are off. However, it seems the producers have an obsession with holograms as we once again see real-time hologram communication with Starfleet and the aforementioned hologram mirrors which have no precedent in the franchise, past or future.

    I forgot what, exactly, they called the creature (other than Ripper), a “tardiform” or something similar? I think we can safely guess why we haven’t seen this form of travel in future Trek, as it does not appear to be a pleasant experience for the creature and, outside of this war time reliance, it would not seem very “Starfleet” to enslave such creature and potentially torture them to provide instantaneous travel. We know the moral lines are currently blurred, especially with someone like Lorca, so we can definitely count on seeing it used in this capacity for the foreseeable future.

    While I think it may be going a bit overboard having every detail lighting turning red during a red alert, I really do like the use of the TOS films’ version of the alert display, it is my favourite type of alert in any of the series and it’s also a nice touch that a “black” version is used during a black alert. I think those should be the only uses, though, as I don’t think a yellow alert would warrant such a display nor changing of the lights.

    On the matter with the fall towards the star, other than the star being the wrong colour, what passes for the viewscreen on the ship is a window and there is no way that a naked view of the star should not have produced a blinding light similar to that of the Klingon beacon in the pilot.

    The only bit of the episode I could have done without would be the Klingons, I find them to be completely uninteresting in Discovery and what this whole “Remain Klingon” rhetoric is all about considering it is they who lured Starfleet into conflict.

    • TUP

      A tardigrade is a real thing and a great bit of science by the show. There is a wikipedia entry for the real life creature.

      I think the series is doing a great job of using familiar visual elements. The Red Alert for example…where they were clearly going to upgrade the visuals of red alert, rather then create something completely new, they used TMP. That to me is a great idea and something they didnt have to do. They WANT to incorporate familiar elements. Good for them.

      However, I disliked the holo-mirror. To me its almost thumbing their nose at the “tech” people. Because I just dont see the point. Using a hologram as a mirror seems to be solving a problem that just doesnt exist. And if you can do that, why cant you just send holographic versions of yourself anywhere? So I would not have opened that can of worms.

      A real mirror seems more personal.

  • AndreaIFelder

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  • Phil Gerard Rizzo

    How do you get CBS All Access for Star Trek: Discovery?

  • Joseph

    This episode basically revealed why we don’t know about Spore Drive and Discovery.
    If the spore drive can only be successful by using that creature, (which echoes the Equinox from Voyager) I can see after the war, Starfleet covering this up and quietly buried.

    I admit the first thought when I saw the saucer spin was “Pizza Cutter!”

    For those complaining about the Technology being too advanced…Did people really believe we’d use 60’s design of the future in Discovery? I mean in certain instances even the tech on TNG seems outdated by TODAY’s standard.

    • TUP

      Agreed! I am so sick of the vocal minority whining about the visuals.

      I thought the same thing about the Spore Drive. That it simply doesnt work as intended and requires a unique species to make it function. And obviously at some point, they will not go along with that.

      Similar to how Transwarp obviously didn’t work (though we didnt get details on it, other than it being pretty easy to sabotage lol)

  • kadajawi

    So here are my thoughts, in case anyone cares.

    First of all, this is miles ahead of TNG in terms of quality, if you look at the first 4 episodes of TNG. Apart from Encounter on Farpoint, which was decent, the next two episodes were bad. Like, really bad. This isn’t.

    I hope by now everyone has realized that Michael isn’t a bad officer. It annoys me quite a bit to see all the hate towards her. She tried to do the right thing, and if she had succeeded, she would have been applauded. We’ve seen the TNG (etc.) crew do this all the time, but they got away with it. So yay Michael. The actress… more of a mixed bag. I don’t buy her much of the time. Then again, on TNG everyone was bad in the first season. Patrick Stewart looked like a terrible actor in the first season. I mean, come on. Kevin Smith mentioned that the role was written for Rosario Dawson. I can absolutely see it, and that would have worked so well. Sadly Rosario Dawson is kind of busy over in the Marvel universe.

    I also hope that this “oh, this isn’t Star Trek because it is so dark” nonsense goes away. Star Trek always had our heroes, our main characters, go against a superior that had ulterior motives or wasn’t as moral as Starfleet claims they are, at some point. Insurrection is a prime example, but there are many. The only big difference is that here we see it on a smaller scale. The “bad” guys are much, much closer, we get to see their motivation much more, and can understand them. I think we’ll also see pragmatism vs. idealism a lot in this show. Lorca is pragmatic to the extreme, Georgiou is idealist to the extreme. Michael sits in between and will show us that you need to compromise, because extreme idealism will get you killed and wars started, while Lorca’s pragmatism and the ends justify the means… well, it’s not exactly appealing.

    I like the ways they try to tie in the Discovery with TOS. The consoles have kind of a TOS vibe to it… updating is fine, as long as it is close enough. The bridge does look very different, but I can put aside those garish colors.

    Btw., it would be cool to see some other Starfleet personal, or freighter crew, etc. that doesn’t wear the delta insignia, but another (the ones they wore on TOS). Having a written explanation on StarTrek.com is good, but seeing it on screen would be better.

    It’ll be interesting to see a cutaway of the Discovery. I suspect, being a big fidget spinner, they may not put much in the saucer section. Some of the engineering may be there? Crew quarters etc. could be in the supersized engineering hull, because, well, it doesn’t spin. The radically different design makes sense that way. They needed space for crews etc., so they made it wider where possible. Also, if this was a rushed job, maybe they didn’t care too much about aesthetics, which is why even for a TOS-era ship this is so straight.

    As I said, changes are ok if they make sense in universe. Explain it, perhaps show that the older show existed and that those ships, creatures etc. exist in this world, and everything is fine. TNG et al. acknowledge the existence of TOS as it is. What was seen there did actually happen, even if things don’t look that way anymore.

    Anyway, back to my thoughts: There is one massive issue I had with this episode, and with Discovery in general. Yup, it’s the Klingons.

    The acting still hasn’t improved. I imagine seeing the actors absolutely desperate trying to act underneath those masks, but we don’t get to see anything. The masks are incredibly lifeless, and nothing moves. Am I supposed to believe that the Klingons have tough as hell skin that doesn’t flex in when the muscles underneath move?

    I thought it was cool when they announced that Klingons are subtitled. But the line delivery. Oh my god. I… don’t… think… anyone… apart… from… people… try…ing… to… read… stuff… in… a… language… they don’t… under…stand… talks… like… this… . No inflection, no modulation, nothing. Just. Incredibly. Slow. Reading. Imagine there being a battle, and the commander giving an order. By the time he has finished the sentence his ship is destroyed! Not practical. Plus Klingons apart from Kirk were always destroyed as fun folks that love to party. These don’t.

    The costumes are silly too. Cool looking, but how are you supposed to fight in these? No wonder the torchbearer got killed by Michael so easily. They might as well wear a straight jacket. Not efficient!

    I hope this nonsense is explained away, but given that we have seen someone from the House of Kor in both previous iterations and DSC… Show as real Klingons next to these abominations, and all is fine. But if all Klingons now look like this…

    Btw., the guy who made the distress call on the mining colony? When I saw him I was like… “FINALLY! A KLINGON!” Now that guy looked like a Klingon. Unfortunately he wasn’t.

    • kadajawi

      Oh, and isn’t it funny how so many said “Oh my god, it’s running on a streaming service, it’s going to look cheap! They won’t have the budget…” Boy were they wrong. If anything, I’d say they have too much money for Discovery.

      Plus… diversity? SJW? We are seeing a species of black people who are aggressive and fighting each other, basically gangs, who will (probably) get united by the only white dude around? Erm…

  • MeisterOlsen

    Funny how CBS managed to make exactly the Star Trek show I did not want to see.

    My dream Star Trek show: Bright, slow paced, deep, philosophical, humane characters, a family in space, a vision of a bright future, something that makes the viewer think and dream.

    What we got: A dark ship full of monsters (not counting the black, slimy, 8-legged one) in a horrible nightmare.

    Well done CBS.

    • Keith Melton

      You have 5 other (6 with TAS) Star Trek shows that fulfill that desire. Is there not room for more variety?

    • Not your thing man. No biggy, we all do not like the same shows.