After successful execution of Discovery’s newly enhanced spores-based drive system, Captain Lorca is ordered by Starfleet to assume a low profile in the war effort for fear the Klingons may now have Discovery on its radar following its actions at Corvan 2.

Lorca is soon captured by the Klingons, however, and held prisoner, forcing Saru to take command of Discovery and mount a rescue of his captain. In the meantime, Michael Burnham is learning the new drive system is harming the assimilated tardigrade. Her pleas on the creature’s behalf put her at odds with a desperate Saru, who is determined to assert his newfound authority and use the tardigrade to rescue Lorca, despite its weakened state.

Lorca manages to escape the Klingons’ clutches with help from a fellow human prisoner, Lt. Ash Tyler, who served aboard the U.S.S. Yeager at the Battle of the Binary Stars. The two steal a Klingon Raider and make their way back to the waiting U.S.S. Discovery, where they are safely beamed aboard — and after taking on a terribly risky experiment to get Discovery out of Klingon territory, Paul Stamets is seeing double…

Saru (Doug Jones) and Burnham (Sonequa Martin-Green) bond over the thoughts of Georgiou. (CBS)

What we have with “Choose Your Pain” is a powerful and compelling installment that’s certainly the best of what Star Trek: Discovery has so far shown us. It’s also one that’s certain to divide fans over its harsher and more violent approach to Star Trek storytelling (we do, after all, get Star Trek’s use of “fuck” in dialogue used twice in the same scene).

If you need an example of the freedoms now afforded an aging series like Star Trek in a more flexible, streaming-service platform, this episode is it. “Choose Your Pain” is a pretty intense episode, by Star Trek’s television standards. Necks are broken; faces are bashed.

There was a time when Star Trek episodes like Next Generation’s “Chain of Command” (with its Picard torture scenes) and “Conspiracy” (with its parasite ingestion and head explosion) were all the talk around the water cooler for their level of ground-breaking Star Trek violence.

Those days are long gone. Standards change, and what we can stomach as viewers in terms of gore has also changed. The question is – how much is too much when it comes to graphic content in Star Trek? Was it gratuitous for Cadet Tilly to exclaim how “fucking cool” Stamets’ research is — and then have it backed up by Stamets himself — in their shared scene in this episode? Or is context the real arbiter in these instances?

It’s a dilemma Star Trek will continue to wrestle with as it adapts to the sensibilities and expectation of modern audience.

Harry Mudd (Rainn Wilson) chooses Lorca (Jason Isaacs) to face Klingon torture. (CBS)

Back to the episode. “Choose Your Pain” is so dense with subplots, it’s a pretty remarkable feat that it all comes together as well as it does. It’s refreshing to see some real physical action for the Klingons after several episodes of talk. It’s also good to see Saru getting something meaty to sink his teeth into.

It’s become something of a cliché in Star Trek to test its secondary characters with a shot at the hot seat for an episode or two. Star Trek: The Next Generation featured several examples of it, to varying degrees of success — the best being Riker’s battlefield promotion to captain in “The Best of Both Worlds” and Geordi’s turn at command in first season’s “Arsenal of Freedom.”

Although Saru hasn’t given us much personal backstory so far, his struggles with command resonate because of his established conflict with Burnham and his stated desire to protect his new captain and prove himself as a first officer.

Lorca faces off against L’Rell (Mary Chieffo), showcasing her English skills. (CBS)

There’s a lot of about Lorca we don’t know and it’s pretty clear that Star Trek: Discovery is intent on peeling back the layers of his backstory, piece by piece.

In this episode, we learn that Lorca previously commanded the U.S.S. Buran, which he destroyed and escaped from during a battle with the Klingons. Some fans have floated theories that Lorca is actually from the Mirror Universe, explaining his combative behavior and all-around atypical Star Trek captain’s demeanor — but while executive producer Alex Kurtzman has confirmed that Discovery will be crossing dimensions sometime this season, we’re more of a mind that Lorca is just hardened by the ongoing Klingon conflict than anything else.

Speaking of mirrors, Stamets’ decision to sacrifice himself as Discovery’s tardigrade-by-proxy is a bit of a groaner. For a second you’re wondering if he was being killed off in the same sudden, warning-free way Landry was dispatched in last week’s episode — but of course it’s a fake-out, with the scientist coming back to life after his trip around the galaxy… and it appears his experience has created some kind of hiccup in the universe, as evidenced by episode’s final scene with Stamets’ mirror reflection.

Hugh Culber (Wilson Cruz) at home with Paul Stamets (Anthony Rapp). (CBS)

What seems particularly intriguing at this point is the possibility that Lt. Tyler is a Klingon masquerading as a human – namely Klingon torchbearer (and T’Kuvma acolyte) Voq.

This theory is being discussed heavily in fandom after this week’s episode, and while I’m not going to spend much time digging into every each clue here — though the credited man behind the mask, Javid Iqbal, has never done a single moment of publicity for the series, and actor Shazad Latif originally being cast as a Klingon — a strong narrative clue comes from “The Butcher’s Knife…” when L’Rell tells Voq that in order to move forward with his next mission, he sacrifice “everything.”

This could imply his giving up his identity as a Klingon for that as a human spy, much like undercover Klingon Arne Darvin from the classic episode “The Trouble with Tribbles.” Let’s not forgot also that L’Rell was commanding the Klingon ship that held Lt. Tyler prisoner, who was kept alive because of a suggested relationship with L’Rell.

Beamed aboard DISCOVERY, there’s nowhere Ash Tyler (Shazad Latif) would rather be. (CBS)

Overall, “Choose Your Pain” is a standout installment that sees all of its primary and secondary characters given a nice piece of story pie, working effectively as a team. The ending, where Burnham gives Saru the telescope willed to her by Captain Georgiou, is a touching scene that nicely counterbalances the darker and more violent points of the episode. It also introduces the expected path toward reconciliation for Saru and Burnham.

Burnham and Tilly’s release of the tardigarde back into space is also a sentimental callback to Star Trek: The Next Generation’s “Encounter at Farpoint” coda where that episode’s ‘jellyfish’ creature is released from captivity after being exploited for its energy-producing capabilities.

Kudos also need to given to Jayne Brook as Admiral Cornwell — interestingly, an officer who is also a psychiatrist by training, revealed during After Trek — and Rainn Wilson as Harry Mudd, who is introduced in Discovery as a more sinister and angrier version of the persona seen in the classic series… and we haven’t seen the last of Harcourt Fenton Mudd.

Star Trek: Discovery returns this Sunday with “Lethe.” Watch for our ongoing Canon Connections series to continue later this week as we look for the ties to Trek‘s past in this most recent episode!

Rob Heyman is a freelance journalist and entertainment critic. He is a regular contributor to both TrekCore and The Logbook, where he has written episode reviews of Star Trek: The Next Generation, Voyager, and the Star Trek movies.

Discovery:
Desperate Hours



Discovery:
Drastic Measures


  • Keith Melton

    and while I’m not going to rehash each clue here
    to which I then list every major clue about it.

    • candelarius

      Ha! Good point.

  • candelarius

    I thought it was a great sci-fi episode. Was it a great Star Trek episode? Not so much. Somebody at work asked me if I’m enjoying DIS, and my response was I’m “enjoying it as sci-fi, but not as Star Trek”. I thought that was clever. I compared it with The Expanse series more than with TNG, et al. Its a great sci-fi show, no doubt, but say what you want, it seems clear to me that DIS is a complete reboot (aside from the phaser pistol and communicator!), set in yet another alternate timeline, or a pre-boot to the Abramsverse (Lord, have mercy!). I don’t see how this, in any way, fits into the so-called Prime timeline. “Standards change” doesn’t justify making what was once a family friendly show “Rate M for Mature” (is that what the F word is, mature? Hey, I use it too…but when I’m at my most *immature* moments in life) and the “we are no longer in the 60s” argument doesn’t justify re-imagining *everything* to this extent (Axanar is an excellent example of how the show *could* have looked, visually, without resorting to “rebooting” completely…alas, CBS and Paramount legally shut them down). The God-aweful Klingon re-imagining (those “raiders”…are you kidding me!?) and the extreme darkness (literally and figuratively) of this version of the Star Trek franchise will forever keep me from considering this part of the beloved Star Trek heritage…but DIS is indeed a great sci-fi show.

    • Thomas Elkins

      “the “we are no longer in the 60s” argument doesn’t justify re-imagining
      *everything* to this extent (Axanar is an excellent example of how the
      show *could* have looked, visually, without resorting to “rebooting”
      completely…alas, CBS and Paramount legally shut them down). The
      God-aweful Klingon re-imagining (those “raiders”…are you kidding me!?)
      and the extreme darkness (literally and figuratively) of this version
      of the Star Trek franchise will forever keep me from considering this
      part of the beloved Star Trek heritage…but DIS is indeed a great
      sci-fi show.”

      I agree with all of this. I actually enjoy the show itself, but I just can’t get over some of the visual choices they’ve made for this show. I don’t even mind some of the changes, like the technology being more advanced. That’s just an example of we can do this cheaply now so we can use it more often. Holograms and the like were used sparingly on TNG for example, most likely because it was expensive, which isn’t a problem now. That doesn’t mean they needed to completely redesign everything though.

      When you say you want the 60s look back, people think you want to bring back transistors and cheap plywood sets or whatever. That’s not even remotely true. You can update computer consoles or recreate the basic bridge design using modern paints or materials while still being faithful to the overall design. You don’t have to completely redesign the bridge in order to make it look modern. It all comes down to how you paint and light it. Luckily we haven’t seen a Constitution-class on the show yet, so hopefully they come to their senses and leave the general shape alone, while just making the computer screens look updated.

      And the Klingons… the Klingons. Oh boy. People keep telling me to get over it and sometimes I think I can… and then I just can’t. I HATE these so called Klingons. I just absolutely abhor them. I of course do not aim this hatred at the actors, or even the make up artists. I think they both do an excellent job of bringing them to life, I just can’t believe they’re Klingons. Had they been a completely new alien race in a post-VOY series, I wouldn’t complain one bit. They’re a cool looking alien, they’re just not real Klingons.

      Now I’ve said it before, I can accept them as Klingons if they are nothing more than a different variation we haven’t seen before. There were in fact various forms of human life on Earth before they went extinct leaving only us. It’s certainly possible other planets with humanoid life also evolved multiple variations and it’s possible that some of them lived, unlike our Neanderthal cousins for example. So like the inclusion of the Aenar as part of the Andorian species, I could totally believe these Klingons are a Neanderthal Klingon that fits in with all the other Klingons we’ve seen before. Sadly I don’t see this happening as It certainly appears they’ve completely retconned the appearance of the Klingons and that just pisses me right off. The inclusion of a completely redesigned D7 battle cruiser doesn’t help make me like them either. Or was it a Bird-of-Prey? Or a prison transport? The writers couldn’t even get that one straight.

      All in all this show is ok, but it needs a lot of work.

      • Keith Melton

        Not even going to address your issues with the visual changes. At this point they are here to stay.
        as to the ship classification, wasn’t it Mudd who called it a Prison Ship? And referred to as a bird of prey when Discovery was following a lead and not a D7 until they were close enough to identify it? Doesn’t sound like a failure of the writing to me.

        • Thomas Elkins

          “as to the ship classification, wasn’t it Mudd who called it a Prison
          Ship? And referred to as a bird of prey when Discovery was following a
          lead and not a D7 until they were close enough to identify it?”

          Nope. After acting captain Saru calls Burnham a predator, the bridge contacts him and says they believe they have identified the battle cruiser holding captain Lorca. Saru orders Stamets to bring the spore drive online and prepare to jump. Once Saru enters the Bridge he tells the commander to set displacement perimeters to bring them within weapons range of the target Bird-of-Prey. What Bird-of-Prey? They mentioned no Bird-of-Prey. The officer said they identified a battle cruiser. After they make the jump they encounter no ship and the tardigrade goes into survival mode. When the doctor explains this to Saru he tells him to re-hydrate it and then asks an officer if they have been detected. The answer is no, which is odd since he ordered them within weapons range of an enemy Bird-of-Prey that’s suddenly not there anymore. Then he interrupts the doctor and asks for the location of the Klingon Prison ship.

          Battle cruiser, Bird-of-Prey, prison ship.

          • Keith Melton

            Going further back when Lorca was abducted the ship as identified as a D7 Battlecruiser. After that technically Mudd did call it a prison ship first:

            Lorca: Where are we?
            Mudd: Typical Starfleet, no fun at all. We are on a Klingon prison vessel. A particular nasty one.

            But the discovery stuff you are correct on. I’d chalk that up to a script flub. Not the end of the world and doesn’t really change anything tho does it?

          • candelarius

            Is there anything they could do that you’d object to, Keith? I’m not being a jerk, I’m just curious. Part of the good sport of being a Trekker is poking at it, complaining, and just having a good ol’ time nitpicking. It’s par for the course. There has to be SOMETHING about DIS that you dislike, right?

          • Keith Melton

            Oh for sure!
            -the uniforms really do nothing for me
            I wish they were closer to or more proto TOS.
            -I want more “space ship porn”. Longer shots of the ships in and out of action
            -some more buttons. There have been some, but touch devices (while looking cool) are bad for quick usage

            Im trying still to keep an open mind for most of it til its done.

          • TUP

            They had said they created TOS style uniforms but changed their mind. I have a feeling we’ll see them before the end of the series. Hey maybe they are in use in the Mirror Universe! lol

          • Keith Melton

            Nah Mirror should be the same we have now but “evil-ed” up. No sleeves, belly shirts (please let Evil Saru be in a belly shirt) the sashes. Those have to be there.

          • TUP

            Well, the Mirror Universe was exposed to the TOS style uniforms in Enterprise, no?

            Would be a nice cameo to get at least an image of Hoshi (or even better, an appearance by T’Pol).

          • Keith Melton

            They were, but in Mirror, Mirror they still had the sleeveless, belly-shirt, sash action. Nothing to me denotes that the Tholians universe jumping the Defiant changed the timeline of the mirror universe. That had already happened by the time of Mirror, Mirror so the fashion stays.

          • AmiRami

            Keep in mind the uniforms the Mirror Universe were exposed to in “In a Mirror Darkly” were TOS uniforms rather than “Mirror Mirror” uniforms because the Defiant was from the Prime universe. It was sucked into the Mirror universe AND sent 100 years back in time.

          • AmiRami

            I get the feeling (but can’t in any way back up the claim) that Paramount would have put the kabosh on CBS using TOS style uniforms because Kelvin trek’s uniforms so very closely match TOS.

          • TUP

            I don’t think paramount could. CBs owns the underlying IP

          • AmiRami

            Well.. Trek has always been owned by Paramount. CBS only got rights later on.

            Officially Paramount owns the movie rights and CBS owns the TV rights. But IIRC one of the reasons DIS took so long is that it was mandated that DIS could not air till the January after Star Trek Beyond left theaters.

          • TUP

            Someone smarter than me will come along and explain it lol but i think it’s he opposite.

            It’s complicated but the underlying Star Trek IP belongs to CBS (through Viacom??). Paramount had an option on a film and were told to use it or lose it.

            It I recall they licensed the underlying IP from CBS.

            That’s why bad robot did the new universe thing since they’d have rights to derivatives from their own creations. But…

            Someone else can explain!

          • AmiRami

            Ok, you could be right I have no idea lol

          • TUP

            Just for fun I looked it up. It’s complicayed.

            TOS was produced by Desilu Studios. Before the second season Desilu was bought by Gulf & Western which had previously bought Paramount Pictures.

            G&W renamed Desilu Paramount Television. TOS carries a Paramount TV copywrite

            G&W reorganized as Paramount Communications retaining ownership of both paramount pictures and paramount television.

            Paramount Communications was bought by (the old) Viacom.

            Viacom also bought CBS but the. Split up with Viacom becoming CBS Corporation, retaining rights to paramount TV and a new Viacom being created

          • AmiRami

            wow… that is… complicated! Thanks!

          • Snap

            The “Bird of Prey” was seen attacking Corvan II in the last episode.

          • Keith Melton

            True true. Thank you. Definite script mess up. Happens to the best of em.

          • IsSkeptical

            there can’t be more than one klingon ship in klingon space?

      • candelarius

        Amen, hallelujah.

    • You can like or dislike the changes to the look, just as many hated the reboot look of TMP. It is just a change to the look, if this a “reboot” was was TMP and TNG. They are not gonna make it look like a fan film and that is all Axanar ever would have been. A campy fan film.

      • candelarius

        Have you watched Prelude to Axanar? I’d hardly call it “campy”.

        And no, TMP and TNG were not a reboots, they were a sequels.

        If you’re referring to the Klingons, yes, they were updated from TOS to TMP….and then their look stayed consistent for 30 years of Trek.

        • Yes, I watched it, well done for a fan film but gods it was campy.

          TMP and TNG changed the look at the same level as well see here, TMP more so. The TMP Klingons are not the ones from TNG, they had a single bone mohawk. And the Makeup kept shifting in the other movies and during TNG.

          • Thomas Elkins

            “It is just a change to the look, if this a “reboot” was was TMP and TNG.”

            Still spewing this garbage I see. TNG looked different because it’s set 100 years after TOS. TMP looked different for a similar, albeit not as long, passage of time. The Enterprise underwent a refit and that refit is a major part of the film’s plot. So stop acting like it was this kind of a visual reboot, because it wasn’t. This reboot aims to erase the old and completely replace it with a more modern look. TMP and TNG did NOT erase the old style. because the old style continued to make appearances after they were created.

            “TMP and TNG changed the look at the same level as well see here,”

            Oh no they freakin’ didn’t! The Klingons may have went from a “bone mohawk” to a “plate” style ridge design, but the rest of them remained the same. They still had a generally human looking face, with sharp teeth, a normal nose, normal ears, HAIR on their heads and faces. The only thing that changed was the general shape of the ridges and the DSC Klingons changed a hell of a lot more than that.

            The DSC Klingons are all bald, have four nostrils, pointed ears smooshed into the sides of their heads with this super dark blueberry like skin tone. You’d have to be incredibly blind not to see they are completely different from BOTH the TMP and TNG Klingons. Hell, even their uniforms were shared between TMP and TNG and the battle
            cruisers seen in both the film and the tv series were of similar design to
            the TOS design. They were more detailed “K’Tinga” class battle cruisers,
            but clearly the same design as the old D7. Compare that to… whatever the hell that was in this episode. This ship looked more like a Dominion ship as designed by ancient Egyptians than anything remotely Klingon.

            I think it’s also worth pointing out that a “mohawk” style Klingon does actually make an appearance in Star Trek VI, next to a non-mohawk style Klingon. Their ridges, as well as all the ridges in the film, are completely different. This is a sign of diversity, not a sign of “they changed the Klingons”. They all still share the other features, like hair and normal faces, etc. Ridge designs do not mean change.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/53dc2a7d167e673d9c7eab12db86992eb2561c9d5c967902510fb9d03679df87.jpg

          • You can not hand wave off “Oh it was a 100 years later”, TMP was 3, three freaking years. Every single aspect changed, including the klingons in 3 years. Also your image is incorrect, that is not the TMP Bonehawk. That is a bonehawk like spread, but not the same make up. The Bonehawk was like a pipe standing 1 to 2 inches off the head.

          • Keith Melton

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/4e3680ddf25bba4cf635720a5eddd65d0901208cdaf33f6d09f01b25ff3cf7a1.jpg
            Definitely different, but still within the realm of the Klingons we come to know between then and the end of Enterprise.

          • But not at the time. Fans did the same thing they are doing now “Those aren’t klingons!” and “We know what Klingons look like, those are not klingons!”. Really the new versions are not super removed from the late era versions. They made them bald, gave them claws( which make so much sense), longer skulls and more pronounced ridges. But really, you can see the old make up there, just moved forward.

          • AmiRami

            But the thing is, the Klingons from TOS had to change in TMP. The Klingons in TOS were really just actors wearing black face make up which is not ok.

            TNG era Klingons really didn’t need updating. Not to this much degree in DIS anyways. They were no longer just black face make up but actors in prosthetic makeup.

            Thats the difference.

          • No, its the same thing. They did not update for blackface. They updated to make them closer to what the show runners thought they should be.

            Same as here.

          • AmiRami

            well ya they updated it to what the show runners want at the time. Thats always true. But it doesn’t make it needed.

            And TMP/TNG klingon makeup isn’t black face.

            “Blackface is a form of theatrical make-up used predominantly by non-black performers to represent a black person.”

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackface

            The presence of ridges on the Klingons clearly denotes that they aren’t human (unlike TOS where they exacty look human) so its not the same thing.

          • There was no need to update them at all. But they did. I know what black face is man. Heck the skin color was called “Mexican brown”. It was not updated over brown face. That had zero to do with the updating.

          • AmiRami

            The updating happened because the TMP Klingons were what Roddenberry had always envisioned but didn’t have the money to do. Thats not my point.

            My point is that the “mexican brown” makeup would not have been acceptable by the time of TMP. It would have been considered racist. The Klingons had to change.

          • Keith Melton

            With that said, I do think you are seeing things a little short sighted Shannon. When those of us who want to see a Constitution class ship in Discovery, we don’t necessarily want the same looking ship from TOS to appear. However, we do want it to still LOOK like a Constitution should. That means saucer, separated secondary hull, nacelles off the secondary. It should still look like it fits, but not like the TMP refit as that is a major part of the first film and still needs to occur.

          • When I say updated, I mean like they did with TMP. They are not gonna mess with the shape. You need to ID it as a connie as soon as you see it. Also we all know the TMP was not a refit, the story called it that but its not the same model or even close to the same model. Its a whole new design, based off the basic shape of the old one, but not the old one at all or in any way.

          • Keith Melton

            Thank you for the clarification. Your previous comments on this have made it seem like you think the Connie should not look like it did at all previously. Like I said elsewhere, change up all the klingons and their tech all you want, don’t mess with the sacredness of the Enterprise.

            It still however needs to have a more “classic” look to it so the refit still makes sense. It was a refit because much of the hull from the original was used and built off of. If it was a 100% new ship, it would have been.

          • That was not what I meant at all. I rather like this update . Although it would need modified
            with new nacelles and the new textures .https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/21472f1236506a823e2153f0541badfee65d76145c4b2b87729261c7967f3587.jpg

          • Keith Melton

            Why would it need new nacelles? I think that render is perfectly fine. The connie’s can just have had an new kind of warp drive compared to other ships in the fleet.

          • No, shes 12 year old. She would not have nacells that are based off a 100 year old designs. ENT forever placed that type as human starfleet, no other race used anything even kinda shaped like that. The Nacells we see on the show are clearly based off the Phase II/TMP style. So that kind would work.

          • Keith Melton

            We will have to disagree on that then. I still find your reasoning and thinking short sighted.
            They don’t have to look like ENT nacelles, but still need some kind of difference that the refit nacelles are there for a reason.

          • The refit can look like whatever they like.

          • Keith Melton
          • Just saying man, the refit is not based off the TOS ship, its based off this design
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/db61b6f9ea146c43c96c1ab609b9962c659b160927fac7ec18dee6c8d8007961.jpg

            And if your that gunho about needing the change the Nacells( you don’t) you would simply say ” The new shorter more efferent models. There is no reason you need round nacells.

          • Keith Melton

            Yes. That is true. But I am not talking film/tv production.

            I am talking “real world” from the 1701 seen in TOS to the 1701 seen in TMP. Canon (which they are able to rewrite all they want) shows that the original Constitution class looked and was designed a specific way, and then the refit design altered it.

          • In setting, it never looked like TOS. You will get something closer to TMP design I would say. Lets be honest, TMP is often the ship most people think of when you say ‘Enterprise” or “Kirks” enterprise. The design is damned near perfection to be honest and one every ship that came after it borrowed from.

          • Keith Melton

            In setting?
            Then why didnt they update the design in DS9? Or in ENT mirror episode? Or when Scotty visits the holodeck in Relics?

            Sorry, the Connie’s looked like they did. And honestly? Not everyone thinks of the refit when they think of Kirk’s Enterprise. While I agree with you on “its damned near perfection” I still consider the first Enterprise has the gold standard.

          • All those where after GR died and all homage episodes. Heck scotty even got the wrong ship, he did not ask for the 2nd refit. It was an odd thing for the computer to give him, a 2nd refit only used 5 years out of a 40+ year service life. But we all know why they showed it, even if it was not the ship he asked for.

            We disagree on gold standard, I see old, campy and a 60’s design when I see the TOS design. trek ditched it and it was gone until after GR’s death. Looks are not canon, so there is zero need to keep the look. they will keep the shape, but it won’t look like the TOS ship any more than the TMP design did.

          • Keith Melton

            You have changed your stance on this so many times (or really never made it clear what you mean) that I no longer understand even what you are talking about or feel the need to continue this line of discussion.

            You say campy like you know what it means. The original design (even limited by 60s television budget) was never campy.

          • I have not changed my stance, it is as it has always been. And yes, the 60’s design is campy. Just as Buck Rogers 1930’s rocket is campy. It looked cool for the time, but placing it on a modern show will look silly because it was a product of its age. To the people of the 1960’s it looked sleek and like the future, to the people of even the 1970’s it no longer did. Because style and culture changed.

            You see that design, it screens 60’s. Its the style and its pure out too simplistic look. I am not hating on the design, I am pointing out it only fits in the show it was designed for. It does not even fit TMP, because they changed the design totally.

          • Keith Melton

            Is it so hard to accept that the producers felt (and had the budget) it was time the Klingons got a top to bottom redesign to make them more alien? This doesn’t change really anything about Klingon lore and story* for what we know. Just they look a little different.
            *augment and tribble joke withstanding

          • Thomas Elkins

            “Is it so hard to accept that the producers felt (and had the budget) it
            was time the Klingons got a top to bottom redesign to make them more
            alien?”

            YES!!!!!!!!!! There was nothing wrong with the way the Klingons looked and there was no reason to fix what wasn’t broken.

            “This doesn’t change really anything about Klingon lore and story* for what we know. Just they look a little different.”

            The lore behind the Bat’leth says that it was first forged from a lock of Kahless’ hair… hard to do that when you’re from a hairless species. Remember when Worf was abducted by aliens and he had a panic attack when he saw scissors while he was getting his hair cut? No reason to get your hair cut when you’re from a hairless species. And the barber saying Klingons have luxurious hair that’s a pleasure to cut doesn’t make sense when they’re all hairless. Or how about when Worf went to kiss that Klingon woman and he brushed her hair back revealing her pointed Romulan ears. Hard to conceal your ears behind long flowing hair when you’re from a hairless species. Hard to be shocked by pointed ears when you come from a species with pointed ears.

            They ruined the damn Klingons

          • Keith Melton

            Fair enough, but I really don’t see those as ruining klingons in any way. Just changes a few tiny things that aren’t that important.

        • Eric Cheung

          Prelude was quite good, but reading the reviews of the full script, if it’s anything like how it’s described, the Axanar film would have been pretty bad. It’s biggest problems were that it turned Garth into a Marty Stu (constantly celebrated by all the other characters), was exposition heavy, and suffered from logic problems that not only made the characters look dumb, but sexual harrassers and maniacal, without condemning them.

          What I assumed the film would be about was Garth’s fall from grace, rather than a hagiography. The movie, as described, was more a way to use the Garth name. It could have been any generic hero

          I guess the full script is available online, but here’s the blog analyzing the script in excruciating, but pretty fair-minded detail:

          https://axanarsporking.wordpress.com/

    • A_Warrior_of_Marley

      “..alas, CBS and Paramount legally shut them down”

      Not this again. CBS and Paramount had every right to shut down Axanar after Alec Peters tried to sell merchandise and build a studio. In fact, based on Christian Gossett’s statements, CBS and Paramount went really easy on Alec Peters and were fine with the settlement when they could have easily won in court and taken Peters to the cleaners.

      So in the end, the fault lies solely with Peters, not Paramount and CBS.

      • candelarius

        Yes, sir, this again, ….sorry, didn’t mean to trip the automatic Paramount/CBS defense satellite. Sure, they had the legal right. They can sue every single piece of fandom out there. Cause that’s what you do, right? Sue you fans. Makes sense to me. /sarcasm

        • You legally have to defend your IP or lose it. He tried to steal it, out right steal it.

          • Your Worst Nightmare

            Trademarks you have to defend. The lawsuit was about copyright.

          • Fair, but would you have allowed someone to market your IP and claim you did not own it?

          • Your Worst Nightmare

            Absolutely not. Then again I was totally against Axanar to begin with, particularly with this suit. I was just clarifying the difference between what Axanar did and what you were suggesting. 🙂

          • Fair enough. I just don’;t get folks still defending those con men

          • Your Worst Nightmare

            I’m most certainly not defending them. I used to be very active in the anti-Axanar groups. l’ll still speak up against them. I just don’t care enough to do it regularly. There are bigger things in life than dealing with Alec Peters.

          • Yeah, I only bring it up when the “defenders” show up.

          • pittrek

            Peters has done a few bad mistakes. First of all emphasizing that it’s not a “fan film”, but an “independent Star Trek production”, which is a giant F.U. to CBS. The second dumb thing was to make profit. When the fan productions were not making any profit, CBS was silently “looking the other way”. However when they admitted to giving themselves salaries, and even defending it, it was just a question of time before CBS lawyers interfered.

            However CBS has also done a couple of dumb mistakes. They have forgotten the main rule of every business – keep your customers happy, a happy customer will spend more money. Instead of it they actively declared war on the fans. If they came out demanding that Axanar Productions will immediately stop making profit, or asking them to give them the 100% of the money they made, and then allowing them to continue, they would come out as the moral winners.

          • Oh gods yes, I am not giving CBS a pass here. They should have hit Peters like a a railgun from orbit. But they went to far and went after all fan films o keep it from happening again. Which was too far.

        • mr joyce

          alec peters and his buddies were profitting from somebody elses IP, they deserve everything they got, minus the fan film length restrictions obviously

      • AmiRami

        Peters wrecked it for not just himself but everyone else :-(. There was some damned fine fan trek out there than can never be made now.

      • Starshipdown

        Quite so, quite so. Here’s both the Christian Gossett interviews that people need to see

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-s-CDkR6co

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=na1gT3CcVUQ

        Both of these are must watches since they provide a before and after the settlement perspective as well as context and Gossett is remarkably consistent in his story.

    • Your Worst Nightmare

      Funny how you mention profanity, immaturity and Axanar.

      “Queen bitch whore of the Federation” ring any bells?

    • TUP

      I think that the Berman era made Star Trek look and feel a certain way for a lot of people. Because they did 4 series’ and a bunch of films all using generally the same producers, same era, same designs (with a few minor changes), there is a sense to many that Star Trek IS the TNG era, not the time period but the look and feel and story telling methods etc.

      Had the series all looked very different then the change of Discovery wouldnt be as pronounced.

      But we have to accept that if CBS made Discovery in the same way Berman made Voyager, it had little chance of succeeding. It needed to be updated.

      And if Discovery is successful and we get 10-20 years of this style of series, there will an entire generation of fan who thinks of THIS as Star Trek more than TNG and TOS.

    • IsSkeptical

      Not really that clever. I seem to remember everyone and their mother saying the exact same thing about Enterprise. Good Scifi, but not Star Trek.

  • Really enjoyed this one. I didn’t have the same “groan” reaction to the Stamet’s decision to sacrifice himself with the hope of saving the ship (and his significant other, and experiencing a communion with his mushrooms). Made sense to me. I loved his maniacal laughing afterward, a bit disconcerting. And the end! What an in-season cliffhanger!

    • Shadowknight1

      As soon as Saru asked if the tardigrade was revived and Stamets replied, “We are ready to jump,” I knew what he did. Brave and foolish at the same time. We’ll see what after effects there are in the coming episodes.

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    • Eric Cheung

      The laugh reminded me of Picard’s laugh when impaled by the Nausicaans. Of course, both were suffering from shock.

    • TUP

      I didnt get why it was “groan” worthy actually.

      • SpaceCadet

        I think the reviewer was trying to say it was a fake-out meant to look Iike yet another major character had died.

    • Husnock

      I still wonder how selfless it was. I think Stamets couldn’t resist experiencing the spore network.

  • Havenbull

    Did anyone find it strange the way Stamets seemed to be savoring his toothbrush at the end? Very bizarre.

    • Thomas Elkins

      Maybe toothpaste tastes better in the 23rd century?

      • Keith Melton

        Or maybe those devices stimulate the gum lines in a particularly lovely way. Id be sure to brush more if that was the case.

  • Trent

    I wonder was Lorca implanted with some sort of mental suggestion when he got hit with the bright light ,he seemed really attached to Ash really quickly .
    I wonder what will happen when Ash is called to the Captain’s office ,…I see an upset Tribble in the Future!
    It seems strange that Stametis was all alone in the engine room during a Black alert .
    If he ordered everyone out ,so he could inject the spores did they stand around til the bridge crew came down to check ,wouldn’t they report this strange behavior to …someone ?

    • Keith Melton

      Chief engineer whose spore drive is his creation orders you out. Doesnt seem unbelievable. Maybe Tilly would have wondered but her autism makes her question if its fine or not.

      • Trent

        Not unbelievable , but doesn’t some one need to be at the controls ,while he is sealed in the tube ?

        • Keith Melton

          Possibly? Depends on what that control is needed for. If the spores were injected awaiting drive engage, what would the station be needed for? He could set the injector arms on a timer or voice command. The navigator on the bridge took care of the rest. Stamets was just needed to be the bio computer with TardigDNA assist.

          • TUP

            The implication of needing a navigator in engineering is because ripper wasn’t going to control it.

            But if Stamets is there he can do both

  • SpaceCadet

    I didn’t know there was a mirror universe episode coming up. Sometimes it would just be nice to be surprised by these things when actually watching the episode without having any forknowledge of what’s to come. Maybe I’m the last person left who feels this way. But I guess the only true way to avoid spoilers is to avoid these message boards.

    • Keith Melton

      That is the only true way to avoid it.
      I think the show itself did a major disservice to try to hide that by allowing the promo shoot to go on during the filming of the mirror episode. It was a fan who found the ISS Discovery plate in the back of the bridge from the Vanity Fair shoot.

      • SpaceCadet

        Well now that the cat’s out of the bag I guess we’ll find out whatever happened to Empress Hoshi Sato and what’s occurred since her takeover. I assume no “Enterprise” cast members were invited back.

        • Keith Melton

          That we know of no. But then maybe they kept that part a secret. She’d be super old but thats not any reason to not use her.

          • SpaceCadet

            An old T’Pol would be more likely, assuming she survived events of the prior episodes.

          • AmiRami

            Ehhh but T’Pol was a good guy in the mirror universe. I want evil Sato!!!

          • They could go with the book version in which she kept cloning herself. I really hope they go with a less cartoony evil mirror verse.

        • AmiRami

          This is what I want to see too. That was a pretty huge cliffhanger to leave
          In a Mirror Darly off on.

          • SpaceCadet

            And it was actually meant to be followed up on if “Enterprise” had gotten a 5th season. Notice how that episode didn’t definitively show what happened to any of the major characters. Like Archer was poisoned, but did he actually truly die?

          • AmiRami

            huh… really? I thought the producers knew for certain season 4 would be the last?

          • SpaceCadet

            Until the producers got the cancellation notice from the television network nothing was certain so the writers had outlines of what they wanted to do for a hypothetical 5th season. William Shatner may have even showed up to play Mirror Universe Kirk:

            http://www.startrek.com/article/manny-coto-talks-enterprise-and-24

    • Forest Elephant

      It became public knowledge when Jonathan Frakes made an offhand remark about it at a convention.

      • Keith Melton

        Was that the first? I thought the Vanity Fair shoot came before. But either way, they really didnt do their homework to try to keep it secret.

        • Forest Elephant

          The Frakes thing was the first report I saw, but sounds like it leaked more than one way as you point out.

        • The Vanity Fair was played off as bad lighting.

      • I saw an article that said, “Frakes reveals major spoiler,” and I deliberately did NOT read that article because I did NOT want any spoilers.

        Some of us are pretty serious about avoiding spoilers. I stop the streaming at the end of the episode and don’t watch the preview of the next week’s episode, and I don’t watch After Trek. So I’m angry and disappointed that Trek Core casually dropped such a large spoiler into a review!

        • AmiRami

          I’m sorry this was ruined for you 🙁

    • Locutus

      I too am disappointed that Trekcore would drop a major spoiler of future stories into a review of a current episode. At least, a spoiler warning would be the better approach.

      • Apologies for the trouble; it’d been reported for many weeks by several different outlets – at this point it seemed like a pretty well-known fact about the season by this point.

        • Locutus

          I do understand. I also admire all the work and wonderful coverage that Trekcore staff bring … like SERIOUSLY!

          In the future, a spoiler warning would be best is all I am suggesting. I’ve spoiled myself sick for all the Abrams movies, but trying to avoid the spoilers for Discovery as best I can. Easier said than done.

        • SpaceCadet

          I know I personally try to avoid news reports and even posts on here that reveal spoilers. It’s nice to just watch an episode play out and be pleasantly surprised where it’s taking you.

        • Brian_Brodrick

          Might want to consider more in the way of spoiler warnings for the articles?

      • scotchyscotchscotch

        i can’t believe that either, i was going out of my way to avoid that. not even a warning @trekcorestaff ??

    • TUP

      Im curious if Prime Discovery will cross over (or Prime characters) or if they will do an entire episode IN the Mirror Universe like Enterprise did.

      Also, if the Spore Drive exists in the Mirror Universe, which it should, surely they’d have no issue with enslaving Tardigrades or even using humans in the way Stamets used himself, even if it meant needing a “new” human every time.

      But since we know this Spore Drive doesnt exist by the TOS era in either universe, perhaps its something in the Mirror Universe that will show us why they cant use the Spore Drive. Maybe as simple as Stamets seeing an “evil” version of himself and his technology used for nefarious purposes will have him sabotage it.

      • Eric Cheung

        At first I was going to say that the serialized nature would suggest that the Prime ship travels to the Mirror Universe, but you bring up an interesting point. It’s possible that the show will go to the Mirror Universe for the sole purpose of showing the audience, but not the Prime Universe characters, why the Spore Drive is doomed to fail.

        • TUP

          I think the reflection of Stamets is the clue that he, at least, will cross over. Perhaps only he will (or he switches places with his counter-part).

          It would be interesting if an evil Stamets came to Prime and Lorca was “open” to some of his suggestions. On the flip side, the Prime Stamets would be horrified at what was happening with his science in the Mirror Universe…

  • Good review. I loved this one myself and the F-word , to me was well placed and so very believable.

  • Victorinox

    “we’re more of a mind that Lorca is just hardened by the ongoing Klingon conflict than anything else”

    Another thing to consider is that according to the novel Drastic Measures, then Lt. Cmdr. Lorca witnessed the events of Tarsus IV, so he has seen some pretty awful stuff, which perfectly explains his personality.

    • Well, the Novel is not canon. However, I do agree that he is just a person, the events he faced made him what he is.

    • If you think about what KIRK went through in the first season alone, it’s enough to turn any man hard … but it didn’t. From killing Gary Mitchell to being divided into “good” and “evil”
      halves by the transporter to having his mind emptied by Adams’ neural
      neutralizer to confronting his past when trying to catch Kodos to having
      his own first officer commit mutiny to being framed and court martialled to nearly being decompressed to death to
      watching his brother and sister-in-law die to having to let Edith
      Keeler die … but Kirk would have rescued Harry Mudd.

      • TUP

        How do we know Lorca doesnt go back for him?

        Also, as great as Kirk was, its good that every Captain isnt a copy of him.

        • AmiRami

          I hope he didn’t. I like that Lorca is a dick that likes to get payback. As you said, not every captain should be a Kirk clone. Kirk was special, not the norm.

        • You misunderstand me. I don’t want Lorca to be a copy of Kirk. But when people say, “He had to blow up his ship, so OF COURSE Lorca is no longer a morally exemplary Starfleet officer,” I feel the need to point out that we’ve seen other Starfleet captains face terrible things and not lose their moral compass.

      • Victorinox

        Who cares what Kirk would have done?? Newsflash… LORCA IS NOT KIRK!!

        And I am glad for that. There is nothing more ridiculous than seeing Kirk with absolutely no consequences after seeing the love of his life, or his brother die.

        Thankfully, TNG did a much better job at that. You can see the consequences of Picard’s “Best of Both World” experience in “Family”, when he breaks down and literally cries in front of his brother. You can see the consequences of losing his “Inner Light” wife in “Lessons” when Picard has difficulty opening to another love interest.

        That is how you develop a character.

        • You misunderstand me. I don’t want Lorca to be a copy of Kirk. But when people say, “He had to blow up his ship, so OF COURSE Lorca is no longer a morally exemplary Starfleet officer,” I feel the need to point out that we’ve seen other Starfleet captains face terrible things and still adhere to Starfleet ideals. I want there to be more consequences for the characters than there were in TOS; I just don’t think that losing one’s morality has to be that consequence.

          • Keith Melton

            I think there is much more to Lorca than what we have so far. I can think of a few reasons how his actions on the Buran were unfortunate but necessary.

          • Victorinox

            No captain adhered to Starfleet ideals 100% of the time.

            We saw Commodore Decker so broken by the grief of losing his crew that he left Kirk stranded aboard the Constellation. We also saw Sisko blow up an innocent Romulan ship to trick them into joining the war on the Federation’s side. We also saw Archer torture an Osaarian prisoner to try to get some information from him.

            And of course, we also saw Kirk completely disregard Starfleet’s highest ideal (the prime directive) on more occasions that I can count.

            These people are supposed to be human, and as such, absolutely must have moral flaws.

          • Keith Melton

            Technically, Sisko had nothing to do with blowing up the Romulan Senator. That was all Garak. But he was willing to lie, cheat and break federation law to get the Romulans in the war.

          • Victorinox

            Fair enough, but you get my point

          • AmiRami

            Ya know its funny but Kirk wasn’t the Captain that broke the Prime Directive the most. That was Janeway 🙂

          • Victorinox

            True, but I didn’t say Kirk was the one that broke it the most. Just that he did multiple times, and therefore, he was not “perfect”, he had character flaws just as any other human would have.

          • AmiRami

            oh I know. I was just making an observation lol.

  • Forest Elephant

    This episode finally feels like there is some actual chemistry in the crew where previously there was only unlikable characters yelling, backstabbing, and bickering with each other. Hopefully Culber will be upgraded to a main character. He is the heart and soul of the episode.

    The last scene of Stamets’ reflection lingering in the mirror was genuinely creepy.

    • The issue is, we are only getting it in stages. Its no episodic, so you will not get a read on many of the crew without a few episodes in.

      • Snap

        Yeah, that’s true. While there are stories which wrap themselves up within an episode, the plot points may have an impact at any time through-out the season. There’s something about Stamets and how Anthony Rapp portrays him which had rapidly made him my favourite character.

        • I know what you mean, he is such a dick, but you like him anyhow lol

          • Snap

            My favourite part was, at the beginning, Burnham decided to appeal to Stamets’s vanity and the expression on his face through the whole thing was “Tell me something I don’t know. Cut the crap and tell me what you really want.”

          • Yeah, he knows he is smart and he is super arrogant. Him and Lorca are really working for me.

        • TUP

          I agree and it goes to show the people who were being critical of the characters on Discovery being “all assholes” that you can’t judge a book by its first chapter.

          Clearly Stamets isnt just an asshole.

          • Snap

            I think it definitely works for Stamets, in a similar way that McCoy isn’t just a cynical and irritable doctor. I think Burnham is a character which you almost need to question the motives of. I want to like her, but then I think about how she used Saru with conciliatory words to judge the nature of the tardigrade.

            So, given that, it makes me wonder if her giving Saru the telescope was pure, or a gesture to heal their strained relationship. She’s a tough one to get a read on, as she still seems to be stand offish at times.

            The one thing I don’t like about how they were describing characters before the show premiered was when they said Saru was the “Spock or Data” of the series. I don’t want Saru to be “Spock” or “Data,” I want him to be “Saru” and using such a description is basically just saying “our token alien” while falling back on the tropes of Star Trek which Discovery really shouldn’t need considering its format.

    • For some reason the Lost in Space episode where Professor Robinson had an evil mirror universe counterpart comes to mine. His evil self was a prisoner in leg irons in an intergalactic chain gang. That show scared me as a kid.

  • SpaceCadet

    In terms of profanity on this show we went from “piss” to “shit” to “fucking” relatively fast so early in the series’ run. The former two expletives didn’t take me out of the story so much because the show had already established a grittier tone and news reports had already had the showrunners mentioning pushing the language a bit because they could get away with it on streaming. But “fucking” lurched me out the story because it was like, “wow, they really went there.” And yes, the language makes sense in context, but on a Star Trek series is another matter. Now we’re all gonna play the game of what’s the next expletive they’ll use. “Asshole” is a pretty good candidate. My guess is “dick” as in Culber says to Stamets, “Why do you have to be such a dick sometimes.”

    You gotta wonder how Roddenberry would feel about all of this.

    • Who knows, he changed his stances all the time. He would have hated a war story.

      • Matthew Burns

        Roddemberry would not understand 21st Century life full stop, and neither would anyone of his generation and before it. This is not Roddenberrys Star Trek so it really does not matter.

        Roddenberry was a man who knew the horrors of WW2 and so obviously he would want the future to be complete peace and roses.

        • I agree, he would have hated DS9 with a passion. Trek changed after his death. We would have never gotten “The best of Both worlds”, if he was still in charge.

        • AmiRami

          True. Roddenberry died before 9/11. He probably would have considered the world we live in today to the Mirror Universe.

  • SpaceCadet

    Dr. Culber mentioned treating an Andorian patient on board the Discovery. Will be interesting once we do see this or another Andorian how much their look has been reimagined if at all.

    • I think they will use the ENT make up, I rather hope so as that one IMO was the best of the like 5 or 6 designs we have seen.

      • TUP

        I agree. Maybe there will be some attempt to use the Aenar to navigate the spore drive.

        • AmiRami

          Ohhhh thats a good point!!!

        • SpaceCadet

          I actually thought they would use an Andorian when they were originally looking for a species to integrate with the spore drive but alas they revealed that is was humans that were the most compatible and that’s why Stamets hooked himself up.

        • If they are still around, in a 100 years they may be about gone.

      • Perplexum

        Andorians in ENT had really great makeup. They can’t go back to motionless antennas if they show them.

    • Eric Cheung

      http://www.thetrekcollective.com/2016/08/andorians-coming-to-star-trek-discovery.html

      This leaked picture from Bryan Fuller last year suggests a look slightly different from past appearances, though the Andorians have changed quite a bit over the years.

  • Frank Pepito

    I’ve said already in the Sunday night post how much I’ve enjoyed these last two episodes. Just wanted to my two cents (or Federation credits?) about the F word.

    If we accept the argument that every incarnation of Star Trek reflects on where the world and society is during the time each series was created, usage of the F word on subscription service cable is undeniably an common aspect of that world.

    And Kirk…”…was never a boy scout.” 😉

    • candelarius

      I don’t care so much about it being THE forbidden word, the dreaded F-bomb. Honestly, I think it is puritanical that people even complain about the word itself. What bothers me is that the use of any word like this cheapens the show, it “dumbs down” the franchise, like so much else about the show that I, and many others, dislike. How so? Flagrant vulgarity, as certain words are commonly recognized by most of “polite society” to be, is generally felt to be immature, unbecoming, common, puerile. I can think of several words that simply are not spoken in work, among intelligent, thoughtful, polite groups of people. I know this is a vague concept, and perhaps foreign to some people in the new mainstream audience the show is aiming for. What is polite society? Those people or those places you wouldn’t act like a child or an imbecile around. If no such place exists for some people, well fine. But Star Trek has always been a step above resorting to such crudeness to garner a cheap reaction. Sure, it may have happened a few times, like Data’s silly “oh sh*t” comment in Generations. It was a cheap joke then, too. Now it’s just worse. How much father will they “push” the envelope? I guess we’ll find out…

      • They used the F word just as it would be used at a job, even to the point of her being embarrassed and giving her boss a sheepish look. I have personally seen this unold, just like this.

        • candelarius

          True. Again, it doesn’t bother me personally so much, but I can understand how many fans feel about it. Personally, I grew up watching TNG on the TV with my parents. I was 10 when it came out, and I’ve been watching every since. I don’t have children, so it doesn’t phase me personally. But many of my Trek friends do, and they are not happy. The idea of watching Star Trek with your kids and enjoying the mystery of space exploration and being inspired by a vision of a peaceful future, hope in our time, and noble explorers that make the right choices, live by a higher standard and code of ethics, that don’t bicker and squabble over petty politics and disagreements, that don’t walk around bad mouthing each other and cursing like frat boys, is something that inspired many, and I can understand the disappointment others feel that the new Star Trek doesn’t reflect those family values (and no, I don’t mean “values” as a synonym for religion or puritanism).

          • Dude, TNG had some painful episodes. Not cures words, but try watching the Crusher Ghost thing with your family……

          • AmiRami

            HAHA… Not only did I shag a ghost, I shagged the same ghost my grandmother did.

            Poor Picard being friend-zoned 🙁

          • Try watching that as a teenager in a very religious house….

          • AmiRami

            I saw it as a kid but I def didn’t grow up in a religious household.

          • Yeah, there was so much on star trek in the 90’s that was NOT ok if you had a conservative or religious upbringing. The Girl on Girl kiss from DS9 got so much hate mail

          • AmiRami

            Oh wow. I can’t even imagine. My parents didn’t even care if I was watching porn lol

      • Frank Pepito

        I appreciate your perspective! Profanity to the degree of using the F word is definitely pushing the envelope for a Star Trek series. I happen to respect that the Discovery producers took a chance on this and chose to move forward to include it. I’m sure they were very aware of how much they would stir the pot with some fans.

        In my circles, my friends (and non-friends) and I use profanity to varying degrees. I don’t a lot, but it is in my vocabulary. Should we use such language? That’s certainly up for debate. Ha ha! But I acknowledge that it’s there, that language. And I think it took a lotta balls, or gonads if you like, for Discovery to allow the F word to be used. Because as I said earlier, if every incarnation of Trek reflects the audience of the time it’s produced, its inclusion can’t out of the realm of possibilities.

        Now I admit, I was shocked when I heard it! But now, a few days later, looking back on it and remembering its usage in context, it’s certainly something I could’ve said if I’d experienced a similar thrill of the moment. So as far as it goes for me, I can ultimately let this pass. The line may be drawn by me tho if the writers get way too carried away with its usage in subsequent episodes. So time will tell, but I’m willing to continue to let them earn my trust that they won’t go that far.

      • Eric Cheung

        While I don’t use the word online, or very much in conversation, there have been studies shown that the use of profanity is more common among the intelligent.

        It’s kind of fitting that the word was used among maybe the smartest two people on the ship.

        http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/swearing-study-intelligent-intelligence-university-of-rochester-a7916516.html

        • TUP

          Great point. I’ve seen that mentioned many times. part of how the “intelligent” brain works.

          The people who dislike it are really hung up on the mere fact of the F word in Star Trek and miss the point of the scene which did more to soften Stamets and give us some insight into him than any scene before.

          And it was also a tongue in cheek message from “Star Trek” to all the young “nerdy” kids who love science.

          • AmiRami

            Also, it needs to be said.. The higher your IQ is the less hung up you are going to get on what religion or society tells you that you must conform too. There is a long history of religion vs science and I believe Intelligent ppl are more likely to be on the side of science.

      • Space Gaz

        You said that so well, my feelings exactly.

    • Stephen Herzig

      This was a real point of disappointment for me. My heart sank in this scene. Gratuitous vulgarity has never been part of the Star Trek universe. Gene set the standard, the culture, and the artistic bar. Directors and producers since Gene have been respectful of his vision…until now. And, it is simply part of the formula for Star Trek success. Yes, some episodes and movies have been edgy and pushed the boundaries, but never crossed them. I believe Gene would have been crushed to see his show resorting to cheap, vulgar shots at boosting ratings.

      • Space Gaz

        Well said Stephen. A pity your thoughts will fall on so many deaf ears giving it a complete pass. My heart also sank.

      • Frank Pepito

        It’s definitely a sensitive subject for many. Shocking and surprising, to me too when I first saw it. i think tho that in the context of the scene, it’s a moment where, if many of us were to experience that same genuine surprise and surprising success in a challenge we were trying to overcome, blurting out some vulgarity like that as we screamed is not outside the realm of real world possibilities, perhaps followed by a considerate “Excuse my French” afterwards. Ha ha!

      • StuUK

        Been a while since I dropped one of these but it’s the weekend and it’s quiet…

        I grew up in a household that had a very casual attitude towards swearing. Mum swore, Dad swore… I bet even the bloody cat swore in his own way!

        Before the age of say 8 (early eighties), I was allowed to watch movies that had swearing in them; as I type, Beverly Hills Cop springs to mind, (I still like that film) amongst other things that film showcased Eddie Murphy’s love of the word fuck!
        Clearly to my eight year old self, looking at my parents who by their reaction to such films imprinted on me the lesson or notion that the use of such language in movies was okay and can set the viewer on a path of being entertained and tickled, despite which even in our household I was told NOT to use those words or face some serious consequences.

        My education on this topic evolved to include stand-up comedians who would apply the word fuck (and more) ALOT! – Oh but then by about 13 or 14 Dad introduced me to George Carlin, the coolest comic of them all! His material was like candy to me, one of his most famous pieces being the “Seven Words You Can’t Say on Television”.

        By the time I was 17 or 18, I had staked a claim to apply the use of the English language in any way I saw fit, anywhere I saw fit, including around the parents. I grew accustomed to “getting away” with wilfully dropping the F-Bomb around them. The parents appeared fine with my behaviour and right off the bat had made their peace with how I had chosen to apply the language.
        Now you’d assume a teenager with an attitude like that would get him in to a lot of trouble and you might run away with the impression that my household was like some cheap knock off version of The Osbornes, effing every other word, but that simply was not the case. Those words were used yes, but they remained under measures of restraint; they were pretty much always tempered with context and used to express rather than hurt. I didn’t wear those words out and for budding relationships that I wanted to nurture, I was well versed enough to appreciate how those words offended so I’d reign it all in for them. But sensor the words outright? – “because there’s no need for that kind of language” — Fuck no!

        George teaches us that in and of themselves the words have no power; they’re just words. Think about it. They really have no power whatsoever. It’s the context of how they are used that’s the real driving force behind the recipient’s offense.
        The rulebook on what words can be considered polite or impolite is a flexible document, changeable and completely made up to service a culture wide etiquette that’s largely invented. It brushes over the fact that person to person our value systems vary (often wildly), ignores context and is biased towards pandering to the sensitive the luxury of seeking offense where none was intended. Right now, I’m thinking my effing mother-in-law!

        I was surprised to see the direction that this once ‘family-oriented’ sci-fi show was taking with respect to its use of profanity however whilst my heart doesn’t exactly soar with delight, it doesn’t sink either. The context of “Oh, that’s fucking cool” just isn’t at all repugnant to me. The line’s not trying to hurt anyone; it’s just an underline of expression.

  • Joseph

    I am loving the storyline and yes the overall series. This episode was great although why the Discovery wasn’t near the starbase confuses me. At least have a reason the Captain needed to shuttle back.

    The cursing is fine as long as they don’t overdo it.

    The only aspect I have real issue with are the Klingons. I can deal with the updated tech, I can grasp all the issues with this show’s modernization. But the Klingons were IMHO the biggest mistake. Its not just changing their look, which I hate, or culture it seems, but the total changes of even Iconic ship design. Their ships look like a cross between Romulan-Xindi Insectoids than Klingons. Makes me wish they used a lesser known species for their story. But if the D-7 saw such a radical change, I’d expect the Constitution-Class would also face modernization.

    • A_Warrior_of_Marley

      It was one of the flaws of the episode continuity-wise since the ship was first identified as a D-7 battlecruiser and then a Bird of Prey and more accurately as a prison ship.

    • Many of us know the Constitution will be updated, it has to be as it does not fit.

      • Thomas Elkins

        Which will be the final nail in the coffin for Star Trek. 50 years is a good run… But we’ll see if they actually change it.

        • TUP

          It should be updated. It doesnt have to have three nacelles and be massive and look like a Star Wars ship. But it should be “rendered” using modern tech.

          More so the inside, than the outside. I suspect they will keep the outside fairly consistent. But you can update the interior to look very similar but with modern tech and have it look great!

          • Thomas Elkins

            “It should be updated.”

            Updated, yes. Completely retconned, no. Shannon wants to pretty much erase the original ship from existence and replace it with something that looks more TMP, even though the ship going from TOS to TMP is a canon change and not a complete erasure of the original. That’s why we see the classic USS Enterprise in the Enterprise-D’s database. That’s why we see the classic USS Enterprise when the Defiant travels into the past or when the USS Defiant ends up in the mirror universe.

            The Constitution-class has remained pretty much the same for years, but it has received minor updates. She had a modern looking Aztec pattern in the mirror episode of Enterprise for example. It’s ok to build a super high detailed model of the original ship. I like the details of the JJ-Bussard collectors for example and it would be ok to show a close-up of the classic ship’s engine with similar detailed blades spinning inside. You don’t need to completely redesign the nacelle for that though, which is where the JJ-Enterprise took it too far. At least they admitted they were an alternate universe though.

          • Keith Melton

            Updating the klingons (which you don’t like, that is fine) is perfectly acceptable as they did it across the board (looks, ship, tech, etc)
            Starfleet vessels shown so far still have the same basic look to them so a proper Constitution class will fit right in, even with updated looks. Shannon does not seem to be able to stick to an actual stance on this subject (my discussions with him have gone terrible) and he claims the original is campy.

          • TUP

            I think you’ve misunderstood Shannon. (Or I have). I don’t think he wants to make it completely different.

            TMP doesn’t look completely different. I’d be thrilled if it looked similar to TMP enterprise

            TMP Enterprise looks the same as TOS with better effects, bigger budget and more modern tech

          • Keith Melton

            He does not seem to be clear.
            On one hand he claims the original design is campy and has to go away.
            The other times he claims it is fine and just needs a little updating.

            I have had major trouble figuring out where he stands on this issue.

          • You got confused man. My stance never changes on this issue

          • Yep, TMP style,redesign. It will have to be resdesignd as it simply will not work as is. TMP only kept tge vauge outline.

        • Why he has been changed before, TMP threw it out totally.

          • Thomas Elkins

            AS PART OF THE PLOT OF THE MOVIE! The old Constitution has been seen again afterwards. The refit didn’t erase the original from existence. Why can you not comprehend this?

          • Yeah it did. It showed up after GRs death, always as a homage.

          • Thomas Elkins

            Nope, early seasons of TNG had the classic Enterprise image in the Enterprise-D’s database. A model of the 1701’s classic Type-F shuttle was on display aboard the Enterprise-D and Wesley Crusher had a model of a classic Constitution-class on his academy desk. All episode when Gene was still alive.

          • Good point.

      • AmiRami

        IMO the Constitution class should not be updated. Refined a bit but not a radical redesign like the D7.

        What is amazing about the 1701 is not just that its a gorgeous ship but also the fact that Roddenberry spoke to futurists and scientists when designing the ship.

        The ship has real world logic to it. The saucer houses the crew, the engineering hull is where they keep the dangerous matter/antimatter reactor, which is far from the saucer due to possible radiation. And the Nacells the create the warp field are as far away from the saucer and engineering hull as possible.

        Future designs like Voyager and the Defiant pretty much threw that all out the window.

        • Keith Melton

          By that logic, Reliant “threw” that out the window in WoK. But I agree, update the surface of the ship to look modern, but dont touch the lines, nacelle placment or hulls. I would like to hope that the designers know the look of the Constitution class is much more sacred than Klingon ships.

          • AmiRami

            well tbh I think Reliant did throw it out. Remember WoK was not a Roddenberry movie 🙂

            “I would like to hope that the designers know the look of the Constitution class is much more sacred than Klingon ships.”

            Agreed

        • You will see a major update, like the TMP was a major update. They will keep the shape and basic layout but everything else is up in the air. Look at the Fleet from EP 2 as the style of ship you will likely see.

          The first concept was logical, what we got not so much.
          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/158ccc5470e05d942265ed6c103195659926349afcb6674db144912fb647df8a.jpg

          Trek moved away from that as they did not even use Anti-matter correctly. Shielding got batter as well, you do not see any Nasa Designs made like this, they are all in one frame behind the hab and command mod. Not staggered to the side. Nothing about the TOS ship is hard or even semi hard sci-fi.

      • Joseph

        Updating the look is 1 thing. If update you mean like the Koerner Enterprise, I’m all for it. I’m talking about radical change. Say something like this as the USS Enterprise: Would you be ok with such a radical design change like the D7?
        https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/e8a3350c091470240bcbc1b7d1a3d74ed7fb2dee5ddfa8087a7a35c3bbbccc9d.jpg

        • AmiRami

          Dear GOD no!

        • They will not go the D7 rout. I think you will get something close to the Koerner or the one you show here ( damned nice mod). The D7 is an oddball, but fits with the look they have done with the klingons, it actually fits where the look was headed back in DS9 and looks a whole lot like the Negh’var, but without the neck.

          The klingons are an oddball. They start off with what looks to be a green painted federation ship and slowly over time, start to get their own look. I know folks will hate it, but really what we are seeing is just keeping with where it was headed.

          We have seen what Federation ships look like in their era. The Connie will have a hull colored like those we have seen and nacells more inline with those we have seen, but will have its old layout. Maybe a shorter neck as the design you posted shows.

        • Keith Melton

          ugly.
          https://i.pinimg.com/564x/2b/3c/a4/2b3ca405435148df28d895bd7ca97160.jpg
          That thing doesn’t even have a full saucer. That is not fucking awesome.

          Koerner’s 1701 would fit just fine.

          • Dude, i have seen it from a few angels, its a sexy beast

        • TUP

          I like that ship. But no, not for the Enterprise. And I dont think anyone is advocating for that. It will look like the Enterprise in the same TMP Enterprise looks like the Enterprise and the same way JJ-Prise looks like the Enterprise.

  • pittrek

    The “fucking cool” line was absolutely inappropriate. Harry Mudd was absolutely useless in this episode. Otherwise than that, a fine episode

    • Kirksdeadjim

      I loved the F-bomb drop for two reasons…

      1) It was funny

      2) I knew it would make all the ” This is not my Star Trek! ” nerds go crazy in the forums!

      • pittrek

        1) Maybe if you’re 14. In that age I would probably think it’s funny.
        2) If that is something what makes you happy, that’s pretty sad

        • TUP

          So you dont watch any non-network TV then?

          • pittrek

            I’m not American, so I have very little (legal) access to current USA TV shows, but I haven’t watched TV for the majority of the last decade.

          • TUP

            Then you’re judging the content without context. Premium TV has been the trend for a number of years.

            The Sopranos debuted in 1999 and while not the first “adult drama” is often credited with exploding it to the fore of North American television.

            Im Canadian and we didnt get The Sopranos on premium TV. But during the Olympics, a Canadian Network (I think Bell) optioned Sopranos as counter-programming and actually aired it uncut in prime time. That was a huge deal. It would be like CBS airing The Sopranos at 9PM uncut.

            Adult drama, premium content changed the TV landscape. They show adults speaking like many adults speak, complete with salty language.

            Discovery is premium content. Watch any multitude of dramas produced by Netflix and you will hear the same thing.

            People swear. Why should characters on Star Trek speak differently than everyone else just because its Star Trek?

          • Eric Cheung

            While I agree that characters should speak realistically, the one argument I’ll make against the last point is that, at least in the Berman-era, Trek dialogue was carefully crafted to be timeless, so as still to sound plausibly futuristic as trends in slang fall away. You could argue that the F word isn’t going away, but I did kind of like that style of dialogue and thought that the JJ films nudged a little too 21st century. The alternative would be to go more in the Red Dwarf or BSG direction, by creating original slang. I’m not sure which is more realistic.

          • TUP

            “Fuck” is pretty timeless. Been used for a loooooong time now…since we’ve heard other swears in Trek, one can assume the word is still used. In fact, we know it is because we just heard it!

          • Keith Melton

            Rough estimates have it around 7 to 800 years old at this point. History can’t accurately pinpoint it due to it being used more verbally for years before ever being physically recorded with any regularity. To think that it would be so out of place mere 240 years in future is ridiculous. We should have had more swearing in Star Trek for years. Its too bad immature people (usually those who believe in a sky fairy) take such offense at certain words that we have to coddle them in our media.

          • Matthew Burns

            In all honesty I can see the 22nd Century – if we actually get there – being very on point. Letters and long conversation will be long gone. People will mostly communicate in short bursts and
            … maybe I don’t have a blomin’ clue!

          • AmiRami

            IMO by that point we’ll probably all be assimilated into some version of the borg collective. And it will probably be named the facebook collective lol

          • pittrek

            “Then you’re judging the content without context”
            Sure. I was giving my opinions about one specific thing, not a detailed analysis of current US TV programming.

          • TUP

            Fair enough. But you proclaimed use of the F word as totally inappropriate. You offered no context to support that.

            If you stated that your opinion was you didn’t like it for some obscure reason then so be it. That’s easily dismissible.

        • AmiRami

          1. You don’t have to be 14 to enjoy low brow stuff every once in a while. If you choose to be serious and high minded 24/7 thats your choice. But it sounds like an awfully boring life to me.

          2. It simply shows that when it comes to Trek people can be too rigid at times and it wrecks the fun for everyone else.

          • TUP

            Lots of people seem to enjoy orville (although the ratings are falling). And thats as lowbrow as it gets for network TV haha

          • AmiRami

            Oh Seth Macfarlane… Never change hahaha.

    • TUP

      How was inappropriate?

      If you understand what is actually happening in this episode, Mudd was critical to the plot.

      • pittrek

        Star Trek was always considered “family friendly”. The only reason for profanity was to show that they are allowed to use profanities.

        Mudd was critical? Have we seen the same episode? In the episode I have seen he was there mainly to dump exposition.

        • Kirksdeadjim

          Profanity has been used many times on Star Trek.

          O Brien saying ” Bollocks ” for example.

          • pittrek

            Well the only time I have watched any Trek in English was only on the DVD and Blu-ray releases, but is “bollocks” considered profane these days? I mean I know that there were times when “hell” was a dirty word, but I thought that was decades ago.

          • TUP

            Well Bollocks is slang for testicles. There was a time when you couldnt say “balls” or “nuts” on TV. Now Adam Goldberg says “Balls” all the time on prime time network TV lol

            But you make the point that Hell was a swear decades ago. TV standards change to reflect contemporary values. “Fuck” in 2017 is akin to “hell” in the 50’s I suppose.

          • Keith Melton

            This. What is profane and inappropriate for ones puritanical language views is not shared with everyone and the rate and which language is used and changes over time, fuck would still be appropriate (thus Stamets’ agreement) but can still be considered archaic and out of place to the characters.

          • Eric Cheung

            We do know that “taking a leak” falls out of use by the 24th century!

          • TUP

            And the fact Data says “oh shit” at an appropriate time to use such a word indicates he has heard it many times.

          • Keith Melton

            If we go by the late great George Carlin, the 7 deadly swear words are:

            Shit
            Piss
            Fuck
            Cunt
            Cocksucker
            Motherfucker
            Tits

            So even by that standard, Trek isn’t even at half yet on swearing.

          • Snap

            Tim Allen also had to go by his middle name, because his last name is “Dick.” That’s really comical when you think about all of the personalities who shorten their name from “Richard” to “Dick,”

          • Kirksdeadjim

            ” Shit ”
            ” Bullshit ”
            ” Double dumb ass ”
            ” Knock you on your goddamn ass ”
            ” You really piss me off Jim ”

            These are all only a few examples of swear words being used in Star Trek before.

          • Keith Melton

            Or any insult by McCoy to Spock (how many times did he call him a green blooded son of a bitch?)
            Picard said “merde” numerous times.
            This is nothing new. The pearl clutching over this single fuck is ridiculous.

          • AmiRami

            Seriously. I love Bones but he was down right racist.

          • Keith Melton

            Eh, it was only directed at Spock (im not remembering anything else) and mostly out of frustration or done as a friendly jibe. Spock usually wasn’t bothered by it (other than in All Our Yesterdays but that had extenuating circumstances)

          • AmiRami

            True. But wasn’t Spock the only non (fully) human member of the 1701 crew? Bones really didn’t have an opportunity to insult any other crew member. And he sure wouldn’t do it to a stranger on an away mission cause Kirk would have handed him his ass for it. lol

          • Keith Melton

            I think we can see that Spock being the only non-human is an outlier. The films quickly correct that by having lots of other races serve in the fleet (humans can still comprise the bulk but other races should be represented)

            All I am saying, I don’t think McCoy is racist. Just constantly annoyed at Spock and has no filter for his remarks. If we ret-con with Dax, McCoy in no way can be racist.

          • Eric Cheung

            Having a relationship with an alien doesn’t necessarily make someone not a racist, especially because a lot of bigots fetishize people they consider “exotic.” Any person, no matter whom they keep as company, can be a bigot, or at least think and act with prejudice. I mean part of the point of the “Me Too” campaign over the past few days is that well-meaning people can still be sexist. That we have to stay aware of the impact of our own actions.

          • Keith Melton

            While that is true, I would like to think that Dax has always been a good judge of character.

          • AmiRami

            fair enough

          • Locutus

            Technically, “son of a bitch” refers to his human mother, so he’s really just insulting his human half? Poor Amanda!

            😉

          • AmiRami

            LOL!!!!!!

          • Snap

            I may very well be mistaken, but I think the only time he actually said “green blooded son of a bitch” was not even when Spock was present, but when Kirk revealed that Spock had transferred his katra to him.

            “That green blooded, son of a bitch. It’s his revenge for all those arguments he lost.”

            Other times it has been teased, but typically never finished. I can recall McCoy saying “You green blooded, inhuman…” at which point Spock raised an eyebrow and something would interrupt it. Whereas in Star Trek V, when Spock was trying to understand the meaning to “Row Row Row Your Boat” McCoy called him “green blooded… Vulcan.”

            McCoy, though, was the most prominent user of “damn” throughout TOS.when it would sometimes enter into his “I’m a doctor!” protests.

        • TUP

          I agree that Star Trek has mainly been family friendly. But…I disagree that they dropped an F bomb just because they could. I think they wanted to and low and behold they could…so they did.

          It could be as simple as the writers breaking the story for the series and someone saying ‘hey that sounds pretty fucking cool’ and someone else suggesting a character say that.

          If Ash is Voq then Mudd being there was really important. It didnt HAVE to be Mudd specifically but it had to be someone. That it was Mudd is neither here nor there. If the character is important then it doesnt matter if its Harry Mudd or Johnny Favorite.

          If Ash is Voq then having that third character there was important. Mudd gave us the clue when he said they let prisoners pass on their beating to prevent bonding. Lorca was naturally going to be mistrustful. In fact, that was shown as he admitted to providing information to test his cell mates.

          So Mudd was important by being a third person in the cell so the Klingons could listen in and Lorca would blame Mudd and be more likely to trust Ash.

          He was also important in being a “bad guy”, thus making Lorca more protective of Ash.

          He provided information to Lorca that otherwise would have to be provided by Ash, raising the potential for Lorca to be suspicious of him.

          When you look at the bigger picture, the inclusion of a third person was critical to the plan. That it was Mudd was just a nice bit of “world building” by the writers (and since Mudd returns later, they likely wanted a recurring character we’d know).

          • pittrek

            I agree with you that it didn’t have to be Mudd. I would actually prefer if it wasn’t Mudd.

          • TUP

            But thats not what you said. You said Mudd was “absolutely useless”. That is not true. If you want to argue that it could have been someone else, fine. But thats literally a specious argument because it doesnt matter either way.

            And since Mudd shows up later, it MIGHT actually matter once we see the rest of the story.

        • AmiRami

          Star Trek has always had profanity (post TOS)

          “Double dumb ass on you!” Kirk in Star Trek IV The Voyage Home

          “Ohhhhh SHIT!” Data in Star Trek Generations.

          • Matthew Burns

            Funny, I never thought of Ass as a bad word? Shit… that is very tame compared to f#@$… but that is just me!

          • Keith Melton

            If you can’t even spell the word, you have no business being offended by it. Grow up.

          • Matthew Burns

            I can spell the word, but I did not feel the need to actually reveal the word in full detail.

            But, I am fucking grown up, sadly..

          • Keith Melton

            When you hide its spelling, you give those who are offended by it power. It is just a word. Context is king as the episode says. It was used perfectly fine and in a natural setting in the episode. Now, if every other word out of Lorca’s mouth was some expletive, then yes…there would be a problem in the show.
            It may be Star Trek, but this is still a navy…not a church social.

          • Matthew Burns

            I absolutely get what you say. In the navy, the army, royal marines and the like, you get all manner of banter and foul language.

            I admit, the problem is, TNG is more akin to a church social club as you say.
            Maybe I’ve watched to much TNG to fully be able to embrace Discovery and its darker reality.

          • Keith Melton

            TNG/DS9 era where we have examples of Damn, hell, shit (as merde) and bollocks to name a few.
            And much of that was done because the shows were made for a syndicated market (and before the time of TV ratings like films have)
            Now Discovery is a chance to be free of those puritanical controls and make a more realistic Trek. Damn the pearl clutchers, full swears ahead!

          • AmiRami

            Ya I guess it depends on who you talk too. For the longest time “ass” was not allowed on TV but its fine now.

          • Snap

            Picard is actually the first Star Trek character to use “shit” albeit in French. However, given those examples, neither of those were throwaway lines just because a character was excited about something.

            Kirk, in The Voyage Home, was responding to a driver who nearly ran him over “Why don’t you watch where you’re going you dumb ass!” So Kirk responded in kind.

            Data in Generations, one needs to remember he just had his emotion chip installed and it had already overloaded his neural net. Plus, the warp core of the Enterprise had just exploded and the shock wave had knocked the saucer into planet fall. It was a perfectly understandable statement, which is really only noteworthy because it came from Data.

            But there is no comparison between “ass” and “damn” and “shit” and “fuck.” McCoy has ALWAYS used “damn,” “I’m a doctor, dammit, not a…” (along with its variants) and you cannot even say “son of a bitch” is explicit considering it was even used in the first episode of The Simpsons, when Santa’s Little Helper was referred to as “You son of a bitch.” It should also be noted that McCoy didn’t always insult Spock with “green blooded son of a bitch” in the movies (and the only use which jumps to mind is when Kirk tells McCoy that Spock had implanted his katra within him), as one example was “green blooded… Vulcan!”

            Part of the objection to the use of “fuck” is it’s not professional and we are talking about crew members who are on duty. Try saying “fuck” in the workplace, especially in front of your boss or supervisor and I can almost guarantee you they will not just agree and repeat it back at you. In fact, many companies will have a section regarding “inappropriate language” in the ir code of conduct.

            No, in the end it’s not really that big a deal, but I honestly don’t want to see it become a common occurrence, dragging Trek to a lowbrow state. Off the top of my head, I cannot recall ever hearing “fuck” in a Star Wars production and I haven’t seen it criticised for that.

          • AmiRami

            “Part of the objection to the use of “fuck” is it’s not professional and we are talking about crew members who are on duty. ”

            Agreed. But in context it fits.

            Tilly is not a typical StarFleet officer. As much as I love her it’s clear that she has some sort of phychological illness and absolutely no filter whatsoever.

            And Stamets is, well, pissed. He doesn’t want to be on Discovery and resents Lorca in a lot of ways. To continue your workplace analogy, he is totally the type of employee that would tell his boss to go F him/herself and totally get away with it because he’s too important to fire.

          • TUP

            “Fuck” is said routinely in my workplace by everyone. It always amused me when we’d have our quarterly meetings with the VP and he’d swear like anyone else would. CEO would swear too. Its how people speak.

          • Matthew Burns

            Your dead right. That is how people speak, in the 21st Century. Is it how we hope people speak in the 23rd?

            I don’t know, but I sure do hope that kids are not encouraged to do it.

          • TUP

            Use of the F word isn’t new. You can go back a few hundred years and ask those people if they hope we’ve stopped using it in 2017.

            This is a total non issue. Star Trek has shown use of many other milder swear words indicating society uses them in the future. Why would “fuck” be the one word that everyone forgets?

          • Keith Melton

            And there we go… “wont someone think of the children!!!!”

          • Snap

            Where I’ve worked, it’s been the opposite. I’ve heard the boss swear, but if anybody else did, it would not be well received. Other places, yeah, there are different standards. It’s one of those YMMV type of things.

      • He really was and we are soooo gonna see him again.

    • Matthew Burns

      I found the f-word inappropriate too. Is this why the show got an ‘R’ rating? Now, I am an adult and I am fully sensitized to bad language, but I find it really awkward to be present in Star Trek.

      • Keith Melton

        Yet you think nothing of the violence in the show leading to a more M rating.
        Hypocrite.
        Every other “bad language” present in 50 years of Trek gives you no pause yet this single Fuck is the end of the world.
        Clutch those pearls a little tighter I guess.

        • Matthew Burns

          I thought Lillys BULLSHIT in First Contact was Wild. Same with Datas OH SHIT in Generations…

          • Keith Melton

            So what then is so wrong with this one? Is it because it is fuck? If that is the case, that is some weak reasoning that you would place such a high value to a single word and not to any others or to the level of violence.

          • Matthew Burns

            Not sure really. The F word is a much more uncommon word to be using in an appropriate fashion. I guess it is how you were brought up as a kid. A fair few at my workplace are always effing this and blinding that. I choose not too, thats me.

      • No, the Violence earned that.

        • Matthew Burns

          I did not find any violence that was above what would constitute a 12A UK rating. Now I am fairly sure that the f word is one word you would not get below a 15 certificate.

  • CAPTAIN D-MAN

    You guys, Tilly is so cool! Totally my favourite trek girl.

    • AmiRami

      Its like they took a female trekkie and made it into a character. So cool!

    • Matthew Burns

      I think she is a character who would relate to many viewera watching. Most of us would honestly have more in common with Tilly than most others. For example, I cannot see many of us being as confident as Picard or Kirk.

  • Locutus

    I really don’t care about the profanity. In fact, I didn’t even notice it until my buddy sitting next to me pointed it out! That said, part if me wishes they hadn’t just because I am tired of reviewers and Trekkies predictably harping on about it.

    All-in-all, it was my favorite episode of the series thus far. I am surprised the tardigrade torture plot didn’t drag out longer and that we got some positive resolution for the creature in this one. I thought it clever that they switch the onerous decision of whether to free the creature on to Saru.

  • Spin-El

    Really liked the episode a lot. They are doing a nice job of balancing classic Star Trek morality themes, with modern drama. The main story is great so far. That being said, I really hope we still get at least a couple stand alone episodes that have nothing to do with the war, and more about exploration.

    My only issue with this episode was one editing part. I felt like going from the meeting with the admiral to being on the shuttle craft was a bit abrupt. I felt lost (almost like it was a flashback) for a few seconds. Were we supposed to automatically realize the meeting was somewhere off the discovery and lorca was on his way back to the discovery, or did I miss something?

    Also I hate hearing fan theories in reviews! The one mentioned in this review seems really plausible and I like being surprised about that stuff when it happens! Keep reviews just the review, otherwise, nice review 🙂

    • Keith Melton

      Well, since the show is serialized and not standalones, I think the need for some theorizing in a review is necessary. Otherwise you can mention a subject/storyline/etc that might not make any sense on its own. Throw in some theories and at least you can talk about it without sounding like an idiot.

      • Snap

        I agree. There may be a general story which will, for the most part, wrap up by the end of the episode it will almost certainly come into play at some point in the future. It really is no different than people speculating on what is going to happen in the next book of a series or whether a particular plot point will come into play.

        The closest Trek comparison would be the final ten episodes of Deep Space Nine, which were heavily serialized. I remember there was even a site which had a breakdown of which major characters would be in each half hour block.

    • Matthew Burns

      I do not understand the need to make these quick-cuts between scenes. It really irritates me for some reason. It is not a big deal but I hope that other directors will not continue to cut the episodes like this. I much prefer scenes to flow nicely with a couple of fade to blacks.

      • Locutus

        It feels like it’s a directorial attempt to make the story feel epic and sweeping. Constantly changing scenery and situation to feel like the story is covering the cosmos. While I see your point, it seems like a common technique these days to keep viewers with short attention spans on the edge of their seats.

    • Keith Melton

      Looks like next weeks episode steps away from the war directly a little bit:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGIqotm5K4c

      • Am I the only one that kinda loves that shirt?

        • Keith Melton

          They are already selling it over at the official site. Bought mine last night.

        • TUP

          I bought one!

        • Keith Melton

          Just went to grab the link…already gone. Sold out pretty quickly apparently. Hopefully they will make more

          • TUP

            Really?? Someone posted it on another thread yesterday and there were stories going around about the shirts. I bought one. Hopefully not on back order!

      • Spin-El

        I always avoid the next episode previews haha. I like having a clean slate when going into an episode

    • You will see no episodic episodes. It will also link to the overarching story.

      • Spin-El

        well I’m fine with every episode having little links to the overarching story, but I’d like to see episodes where they make first contact or get stuck in some kind of special anomaly. It can be refreshing to take a break from the main story of a show, and can help to develop characters without having to worry about moving along the main story.

    • Matthew Burns

      I am thinking that the mirror episodes will be going for different story threads.

  • Fiery Little One

    Hmm… Overall I liked this one. If there’s one thing about this episode that still sticks with me, it would be the mirror. I know we’ll get an explanation sooner or later, but still…

    (sigh) About the courser language seen here, I think the only person they *could* have used was Tilly. If it had been anybody else, it would never have worked. I mean, she’s shown she doesn’t always know how to handle a situation properly. Expressing her excitement in an uncensored manor fits that quirk. Stamets backing her up by doubling down and using it myself, I would think, is his way of reassuring her that her out burst was OK in his view. His being the senior most officer in the room means he can make the decision that it was a good thing, after all.

    Harry Mudd… I was a little bit concerned that Rainn might not work. His first minute of screen time proved me wrong. I look forward to his future appearances.

    • Keith Melton

      Stamets’ reply to Tilly also feeds into his ego. The spore drive is his baby so when someone claims it is fucking awesome that inflates him up a bit more.

      • Fiery Little One

        There’s that, too. hehe.

      • TUP

        An interesting comparison to Michael who purposely appealed to Stamet’s ego and he wasn’t falling for it. Tilly has a genuine moment of awe at his work and he’s like a proud papa.

    • Locutus

      That’s a very good point about Tilly being the one to drop the F-bomb.

      • Fiery Little One

        If you look at what they’ve established about these characters, she *is* the one that would fit with that kind of out burst the best. (shrug) Unless I missed somebody else. 😉

        • Keith Melton

          She is on spectrum as far as I am concerned so her social cues are gonna be a little off.

          • Fiery Little One

            Exactly why I feel she’s the only one the first using would have worked with.

    • I loved his version of Mudd and can not wait to see how he is used.

      • Fiery Little One

        Yeah, what’s in store for Harry will be interesting.

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  • Snap

    After a second viewing of the episode, I have a greater appreciation for the crew of the Discovery. My opinions regarding the Klingons remains the same and, in a way, I have even less respect for them. I said that their whole “choose your pain” nonsense was incredibly stupid and a second viewing displayed just how stupid these particular Klingons were.

    Mudd explained the basis behind the exercise, to prevent the prisoners from bonding, and it leads me to wonder just how often and how long Mudd’s group of prisoners have been in this position. In the first assault, we saw after the Klingon had finished his beating of the “out to lunch” officer, he turned his back for a moment before stomping the prisoner’s head. This exact pattern was repeated with the beating being administered to Tyler, so it’s no surprise that Lorca and Tyler “saw it coming” either legitimately or as part of a potential design should he really be a Klingon spy. On that front, I am not completely sold.

    On the subject of Klingon tech, particularly the “raiders” seen at the end, why are the Klingons using what are essentially the “moths” from Lexx? The spacecraft have dragonfly-like wings and the design doesn’t even fit with what we have seen of Klingon design in Discovery.

    Are we supposed to believe that Klingons are an evolved form of dragonfly in this continuity?