The newest episode of Star Trek: Discovery — “Into the Forest I Go” — has just debuted, and we’re sure you’re ready to dive into a discussion on all the events that just took place.

Here’s your place to take on all the new Trek lore this episode brought us, with no restrictions on spoilers. If you haven’t yet watched the episode, that’s your last warning!

This thread will remain open until our episode review is posted, later this week.

Novel #1:
"Desperate Hours"

Novel #2:
"Drastic Measures"

Novel #3:
"Fear Itself"

  • scotchyscotchscotch

    wow that was quite the ride! i was tense the whole time. thought I was wrong on Tyler then turns out we may have been right. That’s gonna be a tough revelation for Burnham. Micro jump sequence was beautifully shot. Loved all the character dev and emotion.

    NEED screenshots of the wreckage in the final shot

  • dsr_nyc

    Pretty much didn’t breathe or unclench my fists for the first 35 minutes of action. But then the intimate human drama of the remainder of the episode proved just as intense. I have to say it was a stunning achievement through and through.

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      • Victorinox

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  • Frank Pepito

    HOE. LEE. SHIT! This episode was INTENSE!!! This wasn’t what I expected, it was better but wow, I think it also shaved about six months off my life, it was so stressful. Ha ha! I literally had to have a strong drink after the episode ended and took a shot of scotch whiskey to calm myself down.

    For a while I thought the Tyler theory was shot to hell, after he gets all PTSD on us. But it looks like there’s way more to the story after that brief conversation in the brig.

    I did not expect Burnham to have the kind of arc she’s had this season so far and to this point where her involvement is SO essential to ending the war.

    But the most anxiety I had was with the 133 jumps. They built it up well, and then during the jumps, I really worried for Stamets.

    The cliffhanger ending is about what I expected, but it still shocked me that they’re lost seemingly in some alternate or parallel universe…?

    Congrats to the cast and crew of the show. After a challenging start, or perhaps challenging US with their way of starting it, I’ve loved it!

  • That was a very cool episode. That plan was totally a trek plan, flaws and all, classic trek. And yeah, Tyler is totally a Klingon with implanted memories and some trek to fool the scanners.

  • SpaceCadet

    Told y’all that Cornwall wasn’t dead! But how lucky that she wasn’t originally killed by L’Rell when the admiral was electrocuted.

    Even without all of the extra hints in tonight’s episode about Tyler’s true identity, you can just seek the strings being pulled with the relationship being set up between Tyler and Burnham (and probably the first time she’s ever been in love) only for the reveal that Tyler is not the man she thought he was.

    I guess Stamets has finally pulled the Discovery into one of the discussed parallel universes, and perhaps the Mirror Universe in particular? Hmm…

    Nice that Kol is dead. He deserved it and not an especially interesting character. Great that Burnham got Georgiou’s badge back and even better destroyed, the Klingon ship where everything started. Very cathartic for her to come full circle.

    Very exciting and tense episode, I think my favorite one so far. Now the long 8 weeks for the continuation!

    • Victorinox

      Was it really Stamets? How about Lorca punching in “unknown” coordintes?

      • Mo

        It wasn’t Stamets, it was Lorca.

      • startrekker1701


      • SpaceCadet

        Good catch!

    • TUP

      I loved Kol. I thought that actor nailed it and I was hoping Kol would stick around to be our recurring Klingon foil.

      • SpaceCadet

        I thought the actor did fine with what he was given but the character seemed pretty one note. Give me Gowron or Duras or Lursa and B’Etor any day! Y’know the real theatrical Klingons!

  • Eric Watson

    I’ve been a Discovery fanboy (and still am) but I am starting to feel uneasy about the show. It doesn’t have the sense of fun of previous Treks had. Even when Trek was dealing with very serious topics, it had a certain aspect of adventure and fun. This is just all too heavy. There is no joy in anything. And seeing Klingon boobs was really unnecessary. That being said, the wait to see the next episodes is going to be hard! I do enjoy the show and am starting to understand the characters and like them.

    • D.J. Ammons

      When you are not doing self contained episodes but a single storyline you are constrained by the story being told. In this case it is a very serious one so there is not a lot of room for a “sense of fun”. However I could see a future season’s story arc being one less intense where that sense of fun you are missing could more easily be part of the mix.

      • GhostLoveScore

        I am getting annoyed with the show. Nothing gets resolved, nothing gets revealed. I don’t want to watch soap opera where everything is revealed in the last episode. I am waiting and waiting to see what will happen in the end and I think I will just give up on it. Personally I like watching single episode stories. You have 45 minutes, watch it and know what happened.

        I hoped that Discovery will only do this for two or three episodes, but as far as it seems, entire show will be one horribly long soap opera.

        • D.J. Ammons

          They made it clear from the start that this season was one 15 hour story with each episode representing a chapter so it should not have been a surprise. Like you I prefer stand a lone episodes with secondary continuing stories going on in the background but having said that I have enjoyed this one long story a lot. It just takes a different mindset to watch and enjoy it.

        • SpaceCadet

          This series is going to be one long serialized arc, or at least this first season will be. Even so, some episodes have been more like stand alone episodes like the one where the Discovery has the 30 minute time loops.

          Did you not like season 3 of Star Trek: Enterprise which was one long arc?

          • Mo

            DS9’s last two seasons might be a better example.

          • GhostLoveScore

            I liked Enterprise, for me it was more interesting than current Discovery story.

          • James

            You sure did know what was going on in Enterprise. A very predictable Trek. Dull.

          • GhostLoveScore

            I like it that way. I like mystery too but only for one episode.

  • Fiery Little One

    Well, that was something.

  • Snap

    I want to like Michael Burnham’s character, but it’s clear from this episode that she really hasn’t learned from her past mistakes. She was admonished by Georgiou for challenging her in front of the crew and here, when given an order she didn’t like, challenged Lorca in front of the crew instead of making her case in private.

    It’s much like how Kirk was portrayed in Into Reha… eh, Into Darkness, rehashing (almost beat for beat) the character’s journey in Trek 09.

    I don’t really think this episode was so “special” and it certainly didn’t end with a very compelling cliffhanger. The whole thing with Tyler/Voq/whatever is incredibly contrived writing which really insults our intelligence. So, seeing L’Rell makes Tyler remember bits of what happened to him, yet seeing her on the prison ship just allowed him to beat the crap out of her?

    The only part of the episode which had any real tension is the spore jumping sequence and that was primarily out of concern for how it would affect Stamets. It was a so-so episode otherwise, not bad but not great.

    • prometheus59650

      So, seeing L’Rell makes Tyler remember bits of what happened to him, yet seeing her on the prison ship just allowed him to beat the crap out of her?

      Because he was in the midst of the adrenaline rush that comes with escape and rage at being imprisoned by her.

      Seeing her again after having some distance from it all had a different impact. The result isn’t uncommon when this plot device is used.

      • This actually does happen in real life to people who suffer Trama. Years later they just freeze when confronted with the event, even if they did not do that when the event unfolded.

        • TUP

          There could also be a surprise factor. He knows she was shot in the face but maybe thought she was dead. Seeing her alive when he didnt expect to see her at all (either alive or just in that location) shocked him.

      • Snap

        Still, it was a rather week episode to lead into a nearly two month break. I bet they’ll find some way to cheese it so Kol isn’t actually dead, etc.

  • Your Worst Nightmare

    Initial thoughts (and I’ve not read the posts here yet):

    – Ive been a little apprehensive about Discovery but the show has been building towards me giving into it. They got me there tonight. This is one hell of a way to enter a midseason break.

    – I am more than certain now that Tyler is Voq. The flashbacks apparently had Tyler replaced as a Klingon in a few spots and L’Rell’s line at the end about not letting anyone hurt Tyler/Voq was definitely telling.

    – The Stamets thing… I mean, wow. He’s definitely come a long way and I hope that he’s going to pull through here more than just being a crazy Gary Mitchell-esque character as seen in the trailer.

    – I’m a musical theatre nut and seeing Stamets and Culber discussing La Boheme was awesome. Anthony Rapp (Stamets) originated the role of Mark and Wilson Cruz (Culber) played the role of Angel in RENT. La Boheme was the basis of RENT. It literally made me LOL.

    – Lorca, while his methods may not be the best, I think is a good guy. And a good captain.

    – Leaving the question of where they are is great. Is this the trip to the mirror universe we’re talking about now? Is that Chapter Two? Because that actually might be pretty cool.

    Strong 9/10 for me!

    • Mo

      Lorca overrode the final jump. He is not a good guy.

      • Snap

        I didn’t even catch that during the episode. Interesting.

        • Mo

          He was also saying too many of the things that he knew Stamets would want to hear.

          Tyler isn’t Voq. He’s the Manchurian Candidate.

          • SpaceCadet

            I believe Voq has become Tyler. It’s just a bit too convenient for Voq to completely disappear and the dialogue that Voq would “have to sacrifice everything” in order to get his revenge on the Federation.

          • Mo

            I hope that’s not the case. I find the idea of a brainwashed Starfleet officer more interesting.

          • Keith Melton

            To me, he is still Tyler, but Voq is running around buried in his head.

          • Dwight Williams

            Because they’re in the same universe as Camus II and katra transferrals?

          • SpaceCadet

            I think it’s the more dramatic option the writers are going for: Tyler turns out to be the very Klingon that is the rightful successor to T’Kuvma and has fallen in love with Burnham who is the very person who assassinted T’Kuvma. Sounds very dysfunctional!

          • I think Voq’s brain is in Tylor’s head then Tylor’s memories are implanted over his. The torture scene are actually surgery. That’s my guess.

          • prometheus59650

            I think the only real question is whether or not Voq as Tyler will choose to stay with the humans.

            But, yes. Voq disappears, Tyler appears, Tyler’s relationship with L’Rell, Tyler’s “torture” which we may well just find out is mis-remembered surgical alteration, L’Rell’s protectiveness of him.

            Tyler is Voq.

          • TUP

            I agree. Manchurian candidate. Somehow both memories are fused. So he’s the real Ash but sort of the real Voq as well. Will ultimately choose between L’Rell or Michael. Probably dies in the end which would suck. Would be a good character to explore in the future.

          • SpaceCadet

            I’m doubting Tyler gets killed off so soon – he is one of the main cast and there’s a lot of drama to mine with his PTSD and relationships with both Burnham and L’Rell.

      • Your Worst Nightmare

        He’s selfish. He didn’t want to go back and face Cornwell’s accusations. But I still like him. And it doesn’t make him a bad guy. After nine episodes, he’s one of the more layered characters on Trek ever. He’s not going to make it to the end of the season but I like him.

        • Mo

          He’s deliberately manipulating Stamets into sacrificing himself. I very much like him as a character, but let’s not pretend that’s ethical, or that he won’t do it again.

        • Dwight Williams

          And some of those accusations will be harsh indeed once they take their true form. Because, if we’re right, the Lorca we’re looking at is not the Lorca Cornwell thought she was dealing with. Same name, same face, different corner of the multiverse?

        • TUP

          We dont know why he did it, if in fact thats what happened. Perhaps he’s trying to get home, perhaps he’s trying to save his old ship. Who knows.

          I dont see him as bad though. And if he is, he’s keeping his “Terran Empire” ways rather repressed.

  • Godzilla

    Boobs and star trek have now combined. LOL

    • prometheus59650

      Klingon boobs.


    • October_1985


  • D.J. Ammons

    Wow! I am just thankful that the hiatus is a fairly short one and episodes will crank back up in January. If it was one of those “split seaons” like USA Network sometimes does where there is a six month break between the two parts of a season I would be going nuts. What a great way to end the first half of season one. Very cinematic. Beautiful to watch and well acted. It seems clear now that Tyler’s flashbacks are his transformation from a Klingon to a human and that the female Klingon was probably both the surgeon and his lover. So now the question is will he be triggered in some way to remember who he is and become an enemy or will his new found humanity prevail?

  • Intense episode and we’ll done. I now think it’s going to be a battle between Burnham and L’Rell for Tyler, with Voq trapped inside Tyler. The problem is, I don’t understand what advantage this gives to L’Rell or the Klingons. What is the end game if Voq and Tyler are intertwined?

  • prometheus59650

    What if…

    …Discovery is NOW in the Primeline???

    Dun, dun….dunnnnnnnn!

    • Ya mean a goofy 1960’s look? Nope, the parts floating around at the end was way to high tech for that.

      • prometheus59650

        Except that no matter what you’re never going to see that style again. It’s painfully, laughably dated.

        I only posted this as a half-joke, but even if it were true and they were NOW in the timeline of TOS it’s still not going to look like lite-brite consoles and typewriter sounds as the computer works.

        That’s gone no matter what the truth is.

        • Snap

          It would be so incredibly easy to update the TOS era with Discovery-like aesthetics and still retain a TOS feel. Some people are just painfully hung up on the notion that anything “TOS” related means cheap 60s production values. It’s unfortunate, but they lack any imagination whatsoever which could make such a concept work.

          • Thomas Elkins

            I agree, but you’d have better luck explaining that to your shoes before they get it. They think “bring back the TOS aesthetic” means bring back transistors and cheap plywood sets.

          • Snap


            I mean, I look at the engineering lab and I could easily see that look with the skeleton of the TOS engine room. The bridge could even remain largely the same, with a more Star Trek V or VI colour palette with the touchscreen consoles and Discovery-like monitors. They could remove those alert lights from the turbolift alcove and on either side of the viewscreen and implement the Discovery interpretation and use an actual viewscreen instead of a window.Just give the transporter room a different backdrop and adjust the placement of the console. Use the movie era corridors and you have a modernized interpretation of the Constitution class which remains true to to TOS.

            For the exterior of a Constitution class ship, they could give it the modern aztecking, but hopefully not the ridiculously long nacelles.

          • Nebula1701

            Well we know what the exterior of the ship will look like. They might go with the phase two enterprise

          • We actually do not know what it will look like, you can bet good money it will not look TOS style.

          • TUP

            I think it will look very similar. Closer to TMP but recognizably TOS, just TOS if it was made today. Like the concept art that was floating around (cant remember the artist), very recognizable TOS Enterprise but not 60’s style.

            Regarding the Mirror stuff, I believe the producers when they say we’re in the Prime. However, having watched half a season I dont rule out a big plot twist that helps us get closer to TOS…Im not sure how or why. But they’ve hinted at getting closer to TOS (and they created TOS style unis). I dont know how they do it…but I wouldnt rule something out. I feel like there is another bombshell or two to drop from this creative team.

          • I do not think you will get the TOS look, you will get the DSC styling with a shape close to that as the TMP/Phase II design. But it will not be the TOS look.

            Some time of reality altering thing may be doable. I for one will be very pissed if they force in the goofy 60’s look. That honestly would kill the show for me as I do not wish to watch a campy looking fan film.

          • Chromejob

            Oh, YEAH. That could explain the square nacelles of the DSC. Granted, if the timeline is “10 before TOS,” the NCC-1701 is already built, out there somewhere with Captain April or more likely Pike.

          • Yes, but it will not look like the TOs version. We know from a few eps back, the Enterprise is out there. They name dropped.

          • Ryan T. Riddle

            I’d be OK with that. 😀

          • And it would look like Kelvin, so never gonna happen.

        • I knew it was a joke, but ran with it anyhow.

    • Brian


      [Spoiler Alert]

      Pictures from Entertainment Weekly show Lorca sitting on the bridge and the Discovery’s dedication plaque reads “I.S.S. Discovery”. This doesn’t prove they are in THE Mirror Universe, but they definitely aren’t lost in the Prime Universe.

  • Adam Rasmussen

    Tyler will eventually reconcile his Klingon and human sides and make peace between the Federation and Empire. He will realize his original goal, not through conquest, but through peace. Very Star Treky.

    • Thomas Elkins

      They’ve got a LONG way to go before these two make peace.

  • SpaceCadet

    Some further observations from rewatching the episode:

    -The Vulcan admiral seems a bit emotional for being a, well Vulcan. In this case, kind of angry.

    -Will there be a new Klingon baddie to take the place of Kol, or will this be the turning point toward peace with the Federation?

    -I know Culber is not the chief medical officer but then why is he always referred to as the go to doctor for our main characters? Why haven’t we seen the actual CMO?

    -How is the Discovery supposed to get around with the spore drive now that Stamets has refused to be the conduit anymore of will the events at the end of the episode negate this assertion of his?

    -We finally have the first ever gay kiss on Star Trek, or at least between two actual gay characters because Dax and her lover although both in female hosts were just reliving the romance of their previous heterosexual relationship. Either way, we have our first kiss between two males in Star Trek.

    -And we have our first naked female breasts ever in Star Trek albeit in Klingon form. Haha.

    • FightingMongooses

      Regarding Stamets and the Spore Drive; there’s nothing “special” about him. They’ll just find another person to plug into the thing.

      • Snap

        Can/will they, though? It’s not just that he has those nice implants to connect to the system with, but also the tardigrade DNA he took into himself. With their (obviously lax) stance on genetic manipulation, will the Federation even permit such an act again, particularly with how it is affecting Stamets after such a short period? And that was before the rapid succession of micro jumps.

    • Quintillion Tesla

      “The Vulcan admiral seems a bit emotional for being a, well Vulcan. In this case, kind of angry.”

      Yep, Tuvok was continuously annoyed too.

      • Starshipdown

        Spock grinned once and smirked quite a few times in TOS.

    • October_1985

      You know that vulcans do feel, but restrain their feelings. I tend to consider vulcans that join Starfleet I little bit less “vulcanish” than the ones that choose to remain in Vulcan and do “vulcan things”. As in the case of Spock, joining Starfleet may be look like a weird decision and frown upon, so I get that is people less bound to the more rigid aspects of Vulcan phillosohpy and maybe they tend to be more expressive. Spock, Tuvok and others are examples of this.

    • Besides which, a kiss between two women is less socially risky than a kiss between two men. Not sure why it should be that way, but this was definitely a bold new step for Star Trek. Good on them.

      • SpaceCadet

        Two women kissing has been less socially risky because in heterosexual male-dominated culture it’s seen as sexy whereas two men kissing in large part they would find unappealing at a minimum or offensive at worst. But things have definitely gotten better because relationships, be they gay or lesbian, are being better reflected in our media now.

    • TUP

      I thought the Vulcan seemed a bit angry too. I think its the way they’re directed. They are directed to be repressing emotion rather then to be emotionless. Im sure no actor feels excited about being emotionless but come on, be true to the character. The Sarek actor is far better at this.

      Perhaps Culber is like the assistant CMO so he does the day to day stuff. And is likely the go-to guy for anything related to the spore drive. I can buy it.

      Thats one question that Lorca seemed to blow off. Also I’d have liked a better explanation from Staments. I’d have preferred he lament his research (and himself) being used for war purposes and connect the idea that its too taxing and morally wrong to do.

      Glad for the gay kiss. About time and so perfectly natural.

      And for those homophobes, we have the bare breasts to shut them up! hahaha

      • SpaceCadet

        I’ve found that those homophobes that protest too much are basically overcompensating for their own homosexual feelings (and eventually end up coming out themselves) or they have some other skeletons in their closets so protesting about homosexuality is a cover for their own “sins”.

  • Thomas Elkins

    This episode was good, definitely better than most, but some around here act like it was the second coming of Kahless. It wasn’t THAT good. I find it weird that a ship that big is so empty all the time, but then I think it’s just the plot demanding that it be that way. In the previous episode for example, they attempted to escape the ship and then IMMEDIATELY ran into Kol. But of course in today’s episode the starfleet away team of two people, (couldn’t they have at least had two red shirts with them for support), beams over and walks from room to room completely unnoticed. Yes, they had those things that shielded them from sensors or whatever, but this big ship still seemed unusually empty.

    So now they’re trapped in the mirror universe 10 years before Kirk and company discovered it. I wonder how they will explain this one away? Another “top secret” excuse? Soon the Discovery will have transphasic torpedoes and a Jem’Hadar crewman and it will be “top secret”.

    • FightingMongooses

      Yeah, pretty unlikely that Burnham and Tyler could beam on to the Klingon ship, go for a stroll and drop large, noisy, blinking sensors without being noticed. Add the weapons fire later on to boot.

      • Locutus

        I just thought it was kind of comical with the shoulder lamps and the loud computer voice. It’s like when your cell phone starts ringing during an important meeting, “Damn, where’s the mute button! I forgot to turn on the mute!!” I think they were trying to spell things out for the audience but it kind off a little goofy. No big deal though in my book.

    • Snap

      Well, given how Discovery has been a bit loose with which parts of canon to recognize, I think they have found themselves in A mirror universe and not necessarily THE mirror universe. The possibility was planted when Stamets was going over the map Lorca showed him.

  • Victorinox

    So, what’s up with this? Did Lorca chose not to “go home”? Encripted navigation override with coordinates “unknown”?? Hmm

    Is Lorca from the Mirror Universe trying to go to “his” home?

    • Kf

      I don’t think he’s mirror. I think he was afraid to return to starbase and lose command of discovery. He wants to win the war, so random place that may help that objective is better than losing command.

      • October_1985

        I got the same thing. He trusted the admiral to be dead, but with her recovering is possible that they get the Discovery away from him, even with his impressive performance. Also, I think that taking the Discovery to an unknown place may be a way of forcing Statmets to continue working with the spore drive.

        Never trust I slytherin, I told ya! XD

        • Wildcat30

          Yes- without the spore drive, the Discovery is just another ship and no longer the “tip of the spear”. I can’t imagine Lorca being satisfied not being on the front lines. But there’s no way Starfleet would put another person through what Stamets volunteered for, given the side effects that have been made clear.

          We know the Constitution Class ships are thought to be premier in this era (according to Tilly). Discovery would become just another science ship- a grand experiment like the Excelsior.

      • Locutus

        I agree too that it probably has to do with the Admiral, although it would seem unrealistic that they would really wrestle command from him at this point. I don’t think he is from the Mirror Universe or Secction 31.

      • GhostLoveScore

        That’s stupid. What will he do, run for 30 years until he retires? To a prison?
        He didn’t do anything to the last jump. What he did is overrode coordinates on the last of 133 series of jumps for some reason. Last jump that was unsuccessful he didn’t do anything to it. Stamets couldn’t do it and he lost control of the drive.

    • Mo

      Enough of this simplistic “mirror universe” plot crutch. It’s almost as silly as blaming Section 31 for everything. Lorca is us.

      • Victorinox

        huh? lol

      • TUP

        I tend to think so too but this was a clue to something!

        • Mo

          Yeah, that he needed to get away from wherever one admiral or another might take his ship from him.

    • Locutus

      Nice screenshot!

    • Thomas Elkins

      Lorca does have a little Terran captain in him if you think about it. He destroyed his own ship rather than let it be captured, but unlike a Federation officer who would have attempted to save his crew or gone down with his ship, he chose instead to save his own skin. Kind of sounds like something a Terran captain would do. He also said he did it because he knew what Klingon torture was like, even though this was early into the conflict. How could he know what Klingons do with their prisoners when they haven’t been in contact with the Empire for 100 years? I don’t think anything from Archer’s logs could scare him that deeply to murder his crew like that. Could it?

      I suppose it could have been from reports of prisoners being taken during the opening of the conflict, but it’s also possible he knows because the Terran Empire has been in contact with the Klingons far longer than the Federation has. It does appear to be Klingon wreckage in the other universe, most likely destroyed by Terran ships. Perhaps his mission was to steal the spore drive technology for the Terran Empire? Since the USS Defiant secured the Empire’s power to begin with, it means they know of the other universe and may have kept an eye on it for more resources they could plunder. He didn’t take it back home until now because they had to get it to work first and when they did, he proceeded to test it in battle against these Klingons. Now that the tests were successful, he’s ready to go home.

      Only a theory of course.

      Also of note is that Lorca has a Gorn skeleton in his private office. The Federation hasn’t encountered the Gorn yet, but the Terran Empire has. Mirror Archer killed a Gorn aboard the USS Defiant. Perhaps this is a clever hint at Lorca’s true background? His dissected Cardassian Vole could also be a clue, since the Cardassians would eventually ally with the Klingons in the Mirror Universe and destroy the Terran Empire. Again, only a theory.

  • Wildcat30

    I love how the Discovery was lit and looked in the face-off with the Klingon ship.
    Reminded me of how great the Enterprise looked in the original movies.
    Great to see how effective it can be in battle.

    • Thomas Elkins

      It’s because they were in orbit of a planet and had plenty of light to shine on them. I wish they looked like this all the time though. People will say they’re overly dark because there isn’t a lot of light in deep space, but I say this is a television show. If they’re going to have firey explosions and sound effects in the vacuum of space, then they can afford to brighten it up and let us see the ships too.

      • Locutus

        I agree with the idea of brightening up the ships.

    • FightingMongooses

      Yeah, it was nice to have a steady shot that lasted more than two seconds. Discovery is a nice looking ship!

  • Quonk

    They actually went there: Klingon tits…

    • mr joyce


      i’ll get my coat

      • Snap

        No… kleavage.

        • mr joyce

          lol.. good one 🙂

  • Mo

    Hell of a story. Hoping it puts to rest the second lame plot-crutch trope which seems to be popular with some fans; instead of blaming Section 31 for everything, they’re now claiming Lorca is from the mirror universe. Either would diminish the real moral compromises that he’s continuing to make.

    And Tyler isn’t a Klingon in disguise. He’s a Manchurian Candidate. This is excellent, and recalls a fantasy reboot written by a fan acquaintance of mine from about ten years ago, which grounded his version of Trek in a widespread political struggle for control of Starfleet and the Federation.

    My only real complaint is the scene on the Hangar Deck near the end, between Lorca and Stamets. The dialog was clumsy, and it was the episode’s second clue-hammer that showed Lorca would say anything to keep Stamets engaged and willing to make another jump.

    • Locutus

      I totally agree that him being “Mirror” Lorca or “Section 31” Lorca would diminish the impact of his real moral compromises.

      • TUP

        How about if he figured out the spore drive could time jump and he wants to go back and save his crew. But then when he CAN, he realises that saving them would alter the timeline and not end the war? Thus another moral dilemma.

        Plus, and I dont want to believe we’re NOT in the Prime timeline. But what if Lorca’s ship being destroyed was not meant to happen and its what screwed the timeline. We get a corrected timeline and more TOS-ish? Nah

  • Havenbull

    I liked it for the most part, but… it lost me during the Burnham / Klingon Captain hand to hand fight. Not only was it choreographed poorly, but I just don’t buy the fact the a slight, human female could have held her own against a full strength, male Klingon warrior that may have been trained in blade fighting since adolescence.

    • Nebula1701

      It fits with TOS bad choreographed fights! XD

      • Havenbull

        LOL that much is true!

    • SpaceCadet

      I bought it because Burnham was trained in Vulcan marital arts which we’ve already seen shown before, and size/strength does not always overcome speed/agility. If you’re super strong but lumbering and slow it’s not going to help you when someone who is smaller and weaker still gets in quick with the fatal death blow. Besides, Burnham was still basically getting beaten up anyway and escaped death by being beamed away.

      • Eric Watson

        Anything is better looking than Kirk and the Gorn!

        • FightingMongooses

          But will anyone still be talking about the Burnham/Kol fight in 50 years?

        • GhostLoveScore

          It’s not about how it looks. For me, that fight is million times more exciting than this Burnham Kol fight.

      • TUP

        Exactly, I thought the same thing – oh she’s gonna be a match for Kol? And then immediately remembered she was trained in Vulcan martial arts. There was a point in showing us that. We also dont know, but can expect, that perhaps Kol toyed with her a bit.

        And like you said, she was pretty much losing.

        • SpaceCadet

          Right, her objective was not to win the fight but to keep Kol distracted long enough for the Discovery to complete its jumps around his ship.

    • Perplexum

      It always drive me nuts when a human is beating up Klingons. A warrior that trained his whole life and is several times stronger than most other humanoids. At least Burnham didn’t outright punch him unconcious like so many Starfleet officers in the older shows.

  • Chromejob

    I almost felt a twinge of regret cancelling my (until Thurs) free CBS All Access subscription. This last one was pretty good. I just kept waiting for Burnham to turn on her tactical vest’s spotlights as a defensive measure during her fight. Would’ve been great!

  • startrekker1701

    Great episode – this thing is finding its feet. Still hard having a captain you can’t trust though.

    Still confused about last week and how Kol knew what L’Rell was up to? Her actions in the latest episode again point to Tyler being Voq, which really would just be lame.

    FX sequences are too curtailed for my liking – especially given budget and the fact it’s not in a broadcast slot. Still feel like we rarely get chance to take in the ship. Warp effect remains hideous like some cheap Babylon 5 era CGI.

    I don’t feel they’ve ever gone back to the mirror thing with Stamets which is annoying.

    Here’s hoping they’re NOT in the mirror universe but given the ready room (worst set of the show) it looks pretty likely.

    The whole half season gap is a pain – for a series with such a short run it’s not really excusable.

    • Forest Elephant

      The Klingon story line was once more a mess. L’Rell appeared to be hiding in a closet with the admiral when we last saw her she was apparently about to be killed by Kol’s guards. The business on the Discovery was very exciting. Maybe now that they have the Klingon war storyline out of their systems the show makers can get on to the exploration of new life and new civilizations previewed on Lorca’s spore jump map.

      • No, L’Rell was cuffed in a room full of dead bodies. Even she thought the Admiral was dead. Kol , left here there to “think” so to speak. A very Klingon thing, sit with the dead and know you failed.

        • Forest Elephant

          Okay, thanks for clarifying.

        • Mo

          She’d also been beaten.

      • TUP

        This is a good example of the difficulty some have with a serial. The Klingon story, as it pertains to L’Rell is, perhaps the best story on the show. Its certainly great either way. We have the Lorca mystery. We have the L’Rell mystery. We have the Ash mystery. We have the spore drive/Stamets mystery. Awesome stuff.

        And now that you know, it probably is much better to you as a viewer. This site is awesome for that. If I miss something or dont understand, there are people here to inform me and then I want to go back and watch it again. Great stuff.

    • TUP

      I think you only think Ash being Voq is lame is because you know it now. If you never knew, if the theory was never out there and it happened you’d be like “whoa! awesome!”.

      Dont worry about the Mirror thing. We’re only half way done.

  • Dwight Williams

    Has anyone else seen a closeup of the map of nearby space around the Pahvo system yet? Including Castor/alpha Geminorum?

  • iMike

    I’ve watched this episode three times now. I’m still not convinced Tyler is Voq, at least not in the sense of Voq being surgically altered in appearance to appear human. His organs would still be Klingon. Discovery holds technology more advanced than the rest of the fleet; its med-bay would have detected Tyler’s true biology. I don’t think DSC’s writers would do something so obvious. I am betting on something even more nefarious.

    • We have already seen Ash and Micheal use tech to hide what species they are. So it is around, and nothing says it could not be implanted. One thing it could be is a human body, with a Klingon “sleeper” memory implant.

      • Interesting possibility.

        Surgery stretches credulity somewhat for me. I know Worf was made to look like some species that looked a lot more human (The episode with his human brother when they migrated that species between planets using the holodeck.) But, Worf isn’t too far off from what a human looks like to start with. Worf’s hands, for example, look like human hands.

        These Klingons have egg shaped skulls. If they surgically tried to make the skull the same shape as a human’s, where would the Klingon’s brain go? Presumably their brain fits the inside of that oddly shaped skull.

        I like the idea that Tyler really WAS a prisoner of war, a human, but that he had some sort of mind transference, or memory implant, so that VOQ’s personality could wake up inside him after some sort of trigger event.

    • TUP

      The one thing I come back to is that Ash lied to Lorca when he said he’d been on the prison ship for 7 months under L’Rell. That was a lie. Which means Ash is lying either because he’s consciously lying or subconsciously lying.

      The only other explanation is 1) planted memories of being imprisoned for 7 months or Ash meant imprisoned in general and not just on the prison ship. I dont recall the dialogue but I seem to think it was specific. It was definitely specific to L’rell. So if he was imprisoned for months as a captive of L’Rell, he had to be on the Ship of the Dead with her. Which is possible.

      That would mean Ash is Ash or he’s Voq with Ash’s memories. There could have been some transference. I’d tend to go with the more obvious answer and that it being more of a surgical thing and memory hypnosis or something rather than a consciousness transfer.

      Someone needs to take the flashbacks and go frame by frame and brighten them and tell us what really went on. I tried briefly but couldnt tell. Looked like Klingon ridges being cut though.

      The rape scenes are fascinating. They are there for a reason. What reason? Are they real? Did L’Rell and Voq have a sexual relationship and the “re-programmed Ash” is interpreting them this way? Was Ash a willing partner and is having trouble coming to terms with that?

      Is the sex the trigger for the manchurian awakening? Will we see the sex again but the “reality” is, its not Ash, but Voq, thus confirming the theory? ie. Is Ash/Voq’s mind confusing both memories as they are transfused together?

      • Snap

        I personally think it is far more likely for Ash to be Ash but conditioned in some way to be a sleeper agent. There is absolutely no way that a surgical procedure can make Voq’s Klingon physiology into human physiology, as we’re not just talking about his physical appearance but also his organs, blood composition and general composition of his body.

        There were some shots of the flashback sequence provided in Trekyards’s review of the episode and they showed Ash being tortured with plastic being stretched over his face.

        L’Rell told Voq he would have to sacrifice everything. What if she was speaking literally and he would have to sacrifice absolutely everything and the only part of Voq which remains is his consciousness, implanted within Ash Tyler and awaiting the opportunity to take control?

      • iMike

        Good points. Ash does make it clear to Michael that he “made a choice” to survive. I think that’s where the sex scenes come in at. He made a choice to do what was necessary to survive.

  • bytes

    Michael Burnham being an alternative view into life serving on a Star ship didn’t make it past the 3rd episode. Main character is the captain. And he is very interesting.

    • This is interesting to me too. Way back, during promotion, I thought everything would be from the perspective of Burnham. That, we wouldn’t know things she doesn’t know. That sounds extreme, but there have been movies and shows that work that way. It was obvious right from the start, this is like any other show, but Burnham is just going to be featured in most episodes.

      I feel that Lorca is my favourite character. I’m by far the most interested in what’s up with him. Burnham is too naive and unlayered. Like, her big secret was that she’d never been in love? That’s hardly a big secret. Plenty of people her age have never been in love.

      • TUP

        It might be a clue as to who makes it to the second season. But I hope Im wrong because I also love Lorca.

        • Snap

          I just want Stamets and Culber to be in the second season cast.

    • Snap

      I think the main character is still Michael Burnham, but I agree the show doesn’t seem to be as hyper-focused upon her as early details of the series seemed to indicate. Then again, the show itself isn’t as tightly serialized as what was originally reported. Many of the episodes have the level of “serialization” as Voyager, being mostly standalone with the overarching theme in the background.

      Hell, Burnham not being a bridge officer didn’t last very long, much like the Starfleet/Maquis divide in Voyager. It almost seems like elements of the story were fast tracked in case the show didn’t get a second season.

  • Tone

    This show is a complete mess, but this particular episode is the first real Trek in years. Shows what they are capable of, when they are not deliberately setting out to undermine all existing Trek TV series.

    • There is nothing to undermine, this is trek. You guys really do not understand arch based shows.

      • Tone

        yeah, ok then…

    • TUP

      hahahahaha deliberately setting our to undermine! Thats great. Im sure that was Fuller’s pitch to CBS. *rolls eyes*.

  • GIBBS v2

    Those scenes where they dropped Klingon language instantly were more immersive and dramatic. Maybe now the only time we hear Klingon is between Klingons.

    Fantastic episode.

    • I admit, hearing the Klingons just speaking in English is much more dramatic. The pace of the Klingon speech always felt slow to me. I didn’t mind the UT gimmick to explain how that happened either.

  • TUP

    My thoughts (before reading everyone else’s since I got here late and there is much great posts to digest I am sure):

    – Loved the episode and it was a very worthy mid-season finale as it
    wrapped up some things (seemingly at least) and opened up new things!

    – I never bought into Lorca being anyone but Lorca but the fact he
    seemingly overode the computer on the last jump with his own coordinates
    adds some mystery. It would seem to me that he was enticing Stamets
    (or preying on his innate curiosity) with talk of other universes but
    when Stamets said he couldnt jump anymore, Lorca had to advance his
    plan…if he has one.

    – Hard to see from the Ash flashbacks but Im sure it looked like
    Klingon ridges being cut (voq being transformed?). The only issue I
    have with showing us the reinforcement of L’Rell raping Ash is that his
    claim to have been her prisoner for 7 months was a known lie (she was on
    the damaged ship of the dead). So the question is, how can both be
    true? I suppose only if Ash is Ash and was kept prisoner on the ship of
    the dead all that time and transferred to the prison ship when L’Rell
    went there.

    Im trying to figure out if the rape was a real memory, a planted
    memory or a fake memory based on some other experience that is
    manifesting itself that way. If Voq and L’Rell had a sexual
    relationship, then I could see those memories being misinterpreted in
    “Tylers” mind. But there was no indication of that previously.

    Was her raping him part of the plan to implant something? is that
    the wake up call to Ash as a Manchurian Candidate? Interesting! Or is
    Ash really Ash and the torture and rape was all apart of making him an
    unwitting sleeper agent? If so, it still doesnt resolve Voq.

    – I HATE to lose Kol and that actor was one of my favorite Klingons
    ever. He did a great job emoting and enunciating through his make up
    and in Klingon. Once he was speaking
    English it was even better as I was watching his face rather then
    reading words scrolled across the bottom. I could have seen him as a
    recurring foe throughout the series. He was THAT good.

    – Great job with “the Kiss” by not giving it to us early in the
    series. Although that would have been perfectly fine, they basically
    dared any of the homophobes to whine about it by letting it come so
    incredibly naturally…almost NEEDING to happen as viewers when it did.
    Rapp is tremendous.

    – This is a really good cast that even when they sink into the
    background they are all great (Tilly and Saru having little to do this

    – Wouldnt Will Decker be far too young to be a cadet?

  • Captain Lorca, Section 31

    I know what I am doing. My ship, my way.
    All of you are on a need to know basis. I will win this war. No matter what I need to do, no matter the cost.

  • Captain Lorca, Section 31

    Now that I am here, things will get very, very, interesting. I have spoilers galore.

  • Eric Cheung

    That’s it until January 7th. I don’t know if it’s a bit harder to digest the show because I’m watching it on my phone, but I think last week and this week’s episodes both were very much epic cliffhangers, and therefore part of an unfinished narrative, even more than usual. I liked both episodes, but I don’t entirely know how to place them in context yet.

    What this episode does is not so much tie loose threads up, but tantalize us with our expectations. Each scene with Stamets sets up a mix of doom, noble sacrifice, compassion, just as each scene with Tyler shows a similar mix, as it’s fully aware of the ambiguity the fans have picked up on. It’s as if Tyler is asking L’Rell on behalf of us “What did you do to me?” No matter what the situation with Tyler truly is, this episode graphically deals with sexual violence against a man, and the PTSD involved in that, a first for Star Trek on multiple fronts.

    The episode itself was compared by Ted Sullivan to “Balance of Terror,” but I see greater parallels to “Apocalypse Rising” and “The Enterprise Incident,” as well as “Hard Time,” “Zero Hour,” and “Sacrifice of Angels.”

    But again, there was so much about this episode which felt inevitable, and the episode telegraphed its inevitability in order to play with those expectations. Like with “Zero Hour,” it appears they’ve set up their return to have a nearly unrelated adventure that might also tie up the rest of the threads.

    We’ll have to wait and see though…