The newest episode of Star Trek: Discovery — “Despite Yourself” — has just debuted, and we’re sure you’re ready to dive into a discussion on all the events that just took place.

Here’s your place to take on all the new Trek lore this episode brought us, with no restrictions on spoilers. If you haven’t yet watched the episode, that’s your last warning!

This thread will remain open until our episode review is posted, later this week.

Novel #1:
"Desperate Hours"


Novel #2:
"Drastic Measures"


Novel #3:
"Fear Itself"


  • Dreameroutthere

    They redesigned the Constitution class. 🙁 This to me says it’s not Prime, nor is it Jar Jar, but a 3rd new timeline / continuity / reality.

    • JP Cardin

      The terran empire most likely modified it heavily once they grabbed it…

      • Dreameroutthere

        Well there are a few problems with that theory. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/6e3d8cf7d29d380b86867b5f8d144943543c02f03386c8c89e1407817554876a.png So this is 100% redesigned. That said, it is possible what we are seeing here is The Defiant 100 years after the Empire has had it. HOWEVER, the computer seems to identify it as a Constitution class and there are no weird readings or anything. Simply identifies it. That, and, no one there is making any comments on how different it looks or saying like Burnam did in the beginning of the ep that it is such and such ship, but it’s outside the norms. Everyone is looking at it and going, yup, that’s Defiant. So that tells me that this is what Connies look like in this universe. That to me says 3rd continuity. Because we saw the Defiant in The Tholian Web, and we saw it in Mirror Darkly 1 and 2, and it more or less had a consistent look. If they are changing it this much, it isn’t just down to being in the Emp’s hands for 100 years. This is what Connies look like here. Did all that make sense?

        • Mike

          That came from a mirror universe data archive. Could easily be what the ship looks like in the present, or at the time of its destruction/retirement.

          • Dreameroutthere

            It could. But I still think someone would’ve mentioned how different it looks if that isnt what Connie’s look like normally.

          • TUP

            It hardly THAT different to warrant a remark in the context of the scene.

          • Brian Thorn

            If mirror, why USS instead of ISS?

          • Paweł Ausir Dembowski

            Keep in mind that it’s data from the rebels, which might not be 100% accurate

        • Partha Mittra

          Actually I think this is what the Defiant looks like ‘now’ in Discovery’s Prime universe. That is this is what the USS Defiant looks like in 2255 . When Saru says that the Defiant is ‘patrolling’ in some sector now he means in their home universe

          • Mike

            That makes a lot of sense, actually. Discovery herself actually evokes the TOS aesthetic quite a bit, and since she’s the prototype for a lot of new technologies…

            That begs the question, though: do the Terrans have spore drive capability? I doubt they’d have their own Discovery if they didn’t.

          • TUP

            Terrans with spore tech is a weird one too. The whole MU requires a lot of “dont think, just accept and have fun”.

        • Thomas Elkins

          Considering it’s been 100 years after the Terrans got their hands on it, it could be a refit of some kind. I know they don’t mention it looking different, but it’s still not a real image of the ship, so there is still time for them to make things right if they show an actual Federation Constitution-class. That being said, it reminds me of a Cruiser from Star Trek Online, particularlly the stardrive. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/06412363f2e2cc70ef159497a5169014d18f230515ea8bfa0dbd298822a26ed5.jpg

          • Brian Thorn

            So is that image from Discovery’s (prime universe) database or the one salvaged from the wreckage (mirror universe). I thought it was a prime image, which explains the USS instead of ISS. And that means Defiant is different than how she appeared in “Tholian Web” and “Mirror Darkly”.

          • TUP

            The implication is its from the wrecked MU ship. But you never know. It would be weird to show a mesh image rather than a full image if it was Discovery’s data banks because they’d surely have a much better image.

        • TUP

          There is no reason for anyone to say it looks different. Thats a minor point in the context of the scene.

          The fact its labelled USS and called Constitution Class is…interesting. It could be how the MU computers log the ship since that would be clear to anyone close enough to read the hull or dedication plaque.

          The only issue would be, if its a scan of the ship when it was acquired, it wouldnt have later changes.

          If its a more recent scan, then the fact Sato and her people kept the designation of USS and Constitution is interesting, especially since, in the normal course of time they have their own Constitution Class ships (if they ever used that designation).

          Its possible they simply referred the ship and honored it by keeping its original name and class, as a way of showing its superiority.

          Maybe we’ll find out. Maybe we wont.

          The fact they used a mesh image tells us that ether they never created a real CGI version that could be filmed or its a surprise.

          We could also be over-thinking it and the people who create the visuals added the text without considering the implications or checking with the creative people to see what it should actually read.

      • TG1701

        Yeah that would make sense. Its been almost a century so they could’ve changed it a bit.

    • Canadianknight

      To me that says it’s not the 60s.

      • Dreameroutthere

        They revisited this ship (the USS Defiant) in 2001 with Enterprise’s forth season eps In a Mirror Darkly parts 1 & 2. It wasn’t the 60s then either, it was the 2000s. And yet, they didn’t seem to feel the need to change and or redesign the ship. In fact, they kept the original iconic look of the Defiant and managed to make it feel more advanced and superior to all the 22nd century ships that we saw in that show. And thusly, In a Mirror Darkly are 2 of the best eps of Trek ever done. So, the simple fact that it isn’t the 60s anymore isn’t a good enough justification (for me at least) for such a radical redesign as this. My 2 cents on the subject.

        • Tuskin38

          Because that was a homage, this isn’t.

          • Thomas Elkins

            That was canon, this isn’t 😉

          • Salvador Nogueira

            You don’t get to say what is canon. CBS does. Sorry.

          • Tuskin38

            DSC is 100% canon.

        • TG1701

          Most of us knew once we learned this was the mirror universe that the writers were going to have to thread a line. Because now you are introducing a ship from TOS and Enterprise that DID have a very direct look on two shows. It will be VERY interesting to see what they will do but yeah if they do reach it and it doesn’t look like a cheap cardboard set from the 60s they will probably just throw in the line its been heavily modified to fit new enhancements or just ignore it. 😉

        • Salvador Nogueira

          And they got cancelled while filming that episode…

    • Mike

      I’d guess the Terran changed the Defiant a lot after getting their hands on her, turning her into a proper flagship for Empress Sato.

      I hope we learn more about what happened after that. Maybe even see the Defiant kicking ass against the rebels one more time…

      • Simon

        Biggest modification are the phaser cannons on the nacelle struts. Obviously they’ve changed her to pure warship in the Mirror Universe.

        • Tuskin38

          It still says USS, not ISS

          • Snap

            Well, the computer identification says “USS.” The hull markings could say otherwise. It was “USS” when it was acquired so perhaps the records reflect that.

      • TUP

        The issue with this is, if its been developed, reverse engineered etc, then it *should* indicate more advanced tech than we’re seeing.

    • Christopher Bunye

      It could be a ship specific refit style – just like the Enterprise-B was for the Excelsior-class. That said, I agree with the theory that Sato and her cronies could have altered it after the Enterprise two-parter.

    • Simon

      Kelvin Universe.
      Only people with the maturity of children twist JJ Abrams’ name into something it’s not.

      • Tuskin38

        None of the events in discovery line up with the Kelvin timeline.

        • Simon

          Yes, but I was commenting on the rudeness of referring to the Kelvin timeline as something other.

      • Nowhereman10

        Honestly, I’d rather have this visual reboot and the mostly very good stories we’ve been getting so far rather than an unchanged look and horrible stories, ala what has been happening with the Star Wars franchise.

    • Tuskin38

      it is a visual reboot. The 1960s designs updated to fit the 21st century tv viewing audience.

      It is Prime Universe with a new coat of paint.

      Same lore, same stories, but with a different look.

      • Thomas Elkins

        What exactly about the design shown in this episode says “21st century” to you? It still looks like the 60s design to me, just with unnecessary modifications.

        Edit: Well it’s unnecessary if it’s the Federation version. It would make sense if it’s a Terran Empire refit.

        • Tuskin38

          Unnecessary to you perhaps.

          • Thomas Elkins

            That doesn’t answer my question. How to those changes make the ship look more 21st century?

          • Edgar Pinecone

            It doesn’t. It just looks like the same thing that happens whenever someone tries to “update” the TOS Enterprise. Pointless cut-outs and add-ons. The only updated Connie worth a damn is the refit.

          • Thomas Elkins

            Well the Connie refit is part of the canon and serves as one of the major plot points in TMP. These changes however serve no purpose. People keep saying it’s to get rid of the 60s look and modernize it, but I’m looking at that wire frame and I don’t see what’s so modern about it. It still looks mostly 60s to me, with random changed parts for no reason at all. Unless it’s a refit given to it by the Terran Empire. They’ve had it for a hundred years, so if they made those changes themselves then it makes sense.

            No one will ever convince me THAT is what the Enterprise and all the other Constitutions are supposed to look like now.

          • Tuskin38

            The refit is my favourite version. I’d rather have that over the original 1960s version.

          • Tuskin38

            Because it doesn’t look like a cheap model from the 1960s.

            Don’t get me wrong I love the TOS connie and non-canon designs based off the aesthetic, but it just doesn’t work for modern TV. It looks dated.

        • prometheus59650

          That is what it is– Terran Empire Refit.

          They’ve had that ship for 100 years. There’s no way they didn’t tweak it in that time.

    • Snap

      From what we saw of the image, at least it is not the extreme redesign that the Kelvin movies took. The Kelvin version looks nothing like the Constitution class aside from it having an engineering hull, saucer and two nacelles (a lot of ships have that configuration) whereas the Discovery schematic looks very much like a tweaked Constitution.

      It really could have been much, MUCH worse.

    • Tammy Rainey

      until stated otherwise, I’m going to assume the minor mods are Terran Empire mods made sometime after she crossed over.

      • Tuskin38

        No one looking at the schematic commented on the ship looking different.

        • TUP

          Why would they? “It seems something happened and the USS Defiant crossed over 100 years ago. Oh and wierd, they made some minor alterations to the pylons…lets talk about this minor thing which is easily explained as refits over 100 years.”

          Im not saying you’re wrong. it COULD be how the new connie looks since it shouldn’t look exactly like TOS. But bendy elbows on pylons seems like an odd change over-all when the vast majority of the ship looked the same.

          Its more likely they did a couple of minder changes to imply it had been in service in the MU all this time.

        • Tammy Rainey

          really it’s only the pylon weapons (the common assumption seems to be they are phasers or something) and the notches in the saucer

    • Nowhereman10

      Not completely, or at least what we can see from the wire mesh schematic that was shown us and unlike the the Kelvin Timeline, at least it follows many of the details as well as most importantly the proportions of the original Jefferies design. In fact, get rid of the saucer notches and the bent angled nacelle pylons, it pretty much is the classic Constitution-class starship design.

  • Quin’s Mama

    Jonathan Frakes 👏👏👏

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    • Lee O.

      Yep, definitely. Also, kudos to the writers. The show seems to be finally coming together. Tilly the insecure and tbh sometimes annoying cadet has to play the self assured arrogant captain now or the crew is doomed. As for the two fan theories, possibly SPOILERS;
      Ash Tyler is Voq seems to be pretty much confirmed. Aside from all the persistent hints that were discussed even months ago, when he was speaking Klingon he sounded exactly like Voq.
      Lorca is from the mirror universe also seems to be more solidified now. He seems to want the spore drive to use in the fight to overthrow the Terran Empire. Also, given that mirror Lorca has a personal history with mirror-Burnham, there is definitely a deeper reason why he wanted to recruit specifically her to the Discovery. Maybe some infatuation, maybe just some sort of torment, who knows… yet 😀

      I have to say, I’m finally truly enjoying the show. As for the persistent visual discontinuity with other shows… it’s unfortunate, but also understandable and honestly, I don’t really care anymore. I’m just happy that the show at least looks beautiful on its own, even if the space CGI is a often bit cluttered.

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  • Christopher Bunye

    I just want to say, DAMN that was a satisfying episode. I wonder how this will work once they return to the Prime Universe, knowing Mirror, Mirror is 11 years away. Perhaps Intelligence seals the records until Kirk requests them after that episode, or is given them by Starfleet.

    And I like the callback to In A Mirror, Darkly.

    • Septim

      Maybe they won’t return. That would solve the issue of the Spore Drive AND Mirror Universe. Maybe rest of the series will be set in Mirror Universe. Just a thought…

      • Christopher Bunye

        Part of me hopes not. I think they spend another episode or two in the MU, then go back. When they do, the Mirror Universe and Spore Drive data will likely be classified by Intelligence, with the Spore Drive being deemed untenable by the Engineering Corps.

        And there are just too many threads that are loose in the Prime Universe.

        • Simon

          As far as the spore drive goes there’s not a lot of Stamets to go around now, is there?

        • Lee O.

          My bet is, they will spend the rest of the season in the mirror universe.

      • Snap

        I thought about that possibility, but before Discovery premiered, we saw a photo of Burnham in her uniform with a badge and rank insignia, something which she has not had to date on Discovery.

        Such a series would be an interesting take on Star Trek, for sure.

        • SpaceCadet

          But that photo would be of Burnham when she was on the Shenzhou?

          • Snap

            No, Burnham had the command uniform on the Shenzhou, her uniform now is a science uniform without a badge, the photo was her in her current uniform but with a badge and a different rank than before her court martial.

            Granted, it IS possible that the photo reflected a potential flashback.

          • TUP

            Could be how Season 1 ends.

        • Victorinox

          She can still be pardoned and reinstated later thanks to her contributions to decipher the Klingon cloaking tech right?

      • TG1701

        No they will definitely return. MU is cool but I think an entire series around it would feel like over kill. But they may spend the rest of the season there.

    • Armsman

      Given that EVERYTHING about the Discovery and Spore Drive tech seems essentially unknown (in Universe) in the future; why would an incident like this become widespread ‘Starfleet’ knowledge.

      I always find it intyeresting that a lot of Star Trek fans have developed a “Hey, if we saw it — later on ALL of Starfleet must know about it too…” attitude.

      • Christopher Bunye

        It wouldn’t. That’s why I’m presuming the information will be sealed by Intelligence and the Admiralty – need to know basis, high level clearance, and the like.

        • Dwight Williams

          Intelligence, Temporal Operations and the Admiralty.

      • John Harmon

        When DS9 went to the MU it was mentioned that Kirk was the first person from the Federation to crossover

        • Armsman

          That was mentioned by the MU characters in the DS9 Mirror Universe episodes, since MU Spock took control of the empire. I suppose that means this crew was successful in impersonating Terran Empire denizens.

        • 31dot

          It was said by Kira Nerys, who might not have been aware of any other visit.

      • TUP

        The one issue is knowing the Defiant crossed over. But if everything about Discovery is classified, presumably its logs would be too.

        They also dont know details of how or when or where Defiant crosses over, so Starfleet intelligence could either decommission the Defiant to prevent it or let events unfold as they may. Hard to say.

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    • TalonCard

      There’s actually a good reason for Starfleet to keep the Discovery’s trip to the mirror universe a secret: it seems Discovery’s return to the Prime universe will be due to at the very least to investigating how the Defiant crossed over. Therefore, Discovery’s return, the integrity of the timeline, and possibly victory in the war against the Klingons all require that the Defiant must be allowed to be lost with all hands long after the war ends. This mirror jaunt would likely be classified until after TOS season 3 at the latest. Quite clever, actually.

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  • Mike

    Loved the episode overall. The mirror universe stuff was awesome fun, but Burnham’s comment about how their confidence is actually just fear really hammered home just how brutal it must be to live there. I also liked Lorca’s reaction to hearing about his mirror counterpart. He’s definitely aware of what kind of person he is.

    Didn’t expect Conner to come back. Having Burnham kill him, albeit in self-defense, was a nice way to up the personal stakes.

    As for Tyler… well, we can’t say we didn’t see that coming. Not sure where it’ll go from here, but being stranded on the I.S.S. Shenzhou surrounded by murderous thugs could easily bring back the Voq personality.

    Captain Killy… lol.

  • Mrplatitude

    Very interesting episode, but I’m not happy about that death. I get that they had to give Tyler that sort of panic moment, but man. It just sucks.

    • Frank Pepito

      For what it’s worth, if you hadn’t seen it, the showrunners on After Trek make a good go at justifying his death, saying he only died because he was the smartest one on the ship, the one whose new tests uncovered new, incriminating information. They said anyone who had offered that kind of info to Tyler would’ve been killed; it just so happened it was Culber. They and actor Wilson Cruz also teased that Culber will be seen again, including pointing to the mycelium theory and how it relates to life. I hope it’s not just to see him in flashbacks cuz that’s just hokey and cheesy.

      • Simon

        How about as a corpse?

  • Fiery Little One

    Huh… Did *not* see that coming.

  • iMike

    Absolutely fantastic episode!!! Frakes and the cast did an amazing job here. Based on Wilson Cruz’s comments on AT we have not seen the last of Culbers. I’m guessing we’ll see flashbacks during Stamets’ grieving process.

    • Mike Street Station

      Or a Mirror Universe version

      • iMike

        Based on After Trek tonight I would be surprised if we see the mirror Culbers.

    • Tammy Rainey

      I expect Stamets will do some invented sporey-super-power thing to bring Culber back. Haven’t they said things before that implied that on that spore superhighway death isn’t exactly a thing or some such? I can’t recall exactly

  • Mike Street Station

    This was quite a fan service episode! Best one of the season by far. As far as the Defiant goes, the image on the screen is just a wire schematic of the ship, not any sort of image, so whatever the differences are between TOS Defiant and this version can easily be chocked up to a century of tinkering on the ship. I’m surprised it’s actually in service after all this time though…

    • Tuskin38

      Except the screen said USS Defiant. You would think the Empire would have renamed her.

      That image is probably of the Prime defiant, and this is the visual reboot of the Constution, or the enterprise went through a refit under Pike and the Defiant hasn’t gotten it yet.

      • Tammy Rainey

        alternately the minor mods on the Defiant schematic might reflect changes made by the Empire AFTER she crossed over.

        • Mike Street Station

          Frankly that’s what I assumed

          • Doctors Tardis

            I just assumed they can’t be bothered sticking with established designs.

          • Tuskin38

            Nope

      • TUP

        They might have,.

        That schematic (or the information about Defiant) came to Discovery by way of the data core of the destroyed Klingon ship, right? its possible it was the earliest scan of the Defiant.

        Or Sato kept it as is as a sign of her superiority.

        The bigger issue with the Defiant is why isnt tech more advanced? And if it IS still around, it has lost its advantage since Connie class ships now exist.

        If the image is what it really looks like, yes we have no idea if its how Prime Connie’s look or if its a refit MU Defiant. I’d assume the latter since I think the pylon elbow is a bit too much of a change for no reason to the classic Enterprise design.

        Going with a mesh image might indicate they never created a usable CGI of the ship because they dont intent to use it (then again, if that was the case they’d likely feature a ship identical to the TOS Connie). Or they are preserving the surprise of when we will see the Defiant in action.

  • Frank Pepito

    So it’s about an hour now since I’ve finished seeing the episode, afterwards enjoying another installment of After Trek, and my mind is still reeling from what was delivered! Voq/Tyler physical transformation confirmation. Culber’s apparent and shocking demise. And confirmation they’re in the Mirror universe AND that they’ll be there for some time. It was all done really well! And like we got to see a darker, edgier version of Mudd, we’re seeing how truly realistic life in the Terran Empire is and it made me sick to my stomach. ha ha! There’s tension on many levels now having to watch Discovery. I’m all in, but wow, I’m gonna hafta have some Tums nearby to settle my belly getting through them! Also, god, I love Tilly!!!!!

  • Snap

    It’s too bad the normal Discovery is saddled with the ugly uniforms while the mirror uniforms are so much better in almost every way.

    It was neat to see the transformation of Discovery to masquerade in the alternate universe.

    • Thomas Mossman

      The Mirror uniforms actually made me laugh; I don’t know if that makes them better than the regular uniforms, but I was amused.

  • iMike

    Any guesses on who this faceless Emperor is?

    • Snap

      It breaks the timeline, but that one crewmember from “Charlie X” would certainly fit the bill.

    • Mike

      Perhaps it’ll turn out to be Empress Hoshi Sato, somehow still alive and in power after a hundred years. Unlikely, yes, but it’d be awesome!

      Otherwise, I doubt it’d be anyone we know. I doubt we’ll ever even meet him or her.

      • iMike

        Perhaps Emperor Phillipa Georgiou? Maybe she’s called the faceless Emperor because no one knows she’s not a man?

        • TG1701

          I think the fact we don’t know who it is means it will be someone we know and yes its kind of telling no one mentioned Georgiou fate in this universe yet.

        • SpaceCadet

          My guess is it’s Georgiou as well. It would make dramatic sense for the emotional dynamic of Burnham seeing her former captain alive but now as basically the face of evil.

    • Chris Tyler

      Phillipa Georgiou

    • TUP

      Definitely Phillipa. Despite how many people will hope its Tiberius!

  • Mike

    So who else is re-watching “In a Mirror, Darkly” right now? 😛

    • TG1701

      Rewatched the first hour. Watching part 2 tomorrow.

  • iMike

    The only issue I have with Tyler/Voq’s surgeries (and I’m very willing to admit I was wrong when I said before Tyler wasn’t Voq) … Culbers is listing off all the things the Klingons did to Tyler. I’ve rewatched the scene a few times and something is bothering me … the Klingons clearly have a much larger skull … I have a hard time accepting that a Klingon brain can fit in a human skull. Could there be another twist at work?

    • Tuskin38

      Or the Klingon brain doesn’t fit the entire skull

      • iMike

        I’ve considered that. We know from TNG that Klingon bodies have multiple redundancies. Tyler seems too much a person to just be a decoy. Perhaps the real Tyler is someone who did exist, that’s why he can’t re being Voq?

        • Michael Medeiros

          perhaps, they took the real tyler’s mind as a template and laid it over Voq’s. A kind of freaky friday situation through the use of a mindsifter.

          • iMike

            That would make it very heartbreaking indeed when Voq realizes he is not Tyler, especially after living and believing as though he is.

          • Snap

            The question remains where is the real Tyler. Is he still alive and, if so, will we see him rescued? What is his physical and mental condition? It would be a shame to lose Shazad Latif from the show.

    • Snap

      The whole plotline (hole plotline?) just has too many holes to make logical sense. Not only is there the skull issue, but just basic biology. Klingons don’t just have a different anatomical layout, they have differences which cannot be altered through surgery, such as blood chemistry/pressure, body temperature, etc.

      If they weren’t so adamant to redesign the hell out of almost everything and left the Klingons as Klingons, (instead of whatever they are in Discovery) then the surgically altered sleeper agent is far most plausible. Of course, the elements which I have mentioned are still a factor and TOS did not insult our intelligence and try to hand wave it, with McCoy instantly blowing Arne Darvin’s cover with a simple medical scan. Yet, in Discovery, we’re expected to believe that Tyler exhibits all of the vital signs of a human and the medical scans just happened to not notice all of the points of interest Culber would later discover because… plot?

      That is a fault of the writing, of course, the acting has always been top notch.

      • TG1701

        Honestly if Tyler really is Voq it will just feel too ridiculous for me. I can buy that they placed Voq’s consciousness in Tyler’s body, I can’t imagine the opposite because its too much of a stretch. I know its Star Trek but damn. How do they get a Klingon to look and sound perfectly human? If they had that kind of technology why aren’t there tons of sleeping agents?

        • Snap

          I agree, it’s too ridiculous a concept for us to expected to believe.

          • Salvador Nogueira

            But in TOS all is forgiven. May I remind tou that Klingons that look like humans are CANON? 🙂

          • TG1701

            Yes but those guys didn’t go through any of that. And McCoy was able to figure out he was a Klingon after a 2 second scan. But here the Klingons manage to bypass every deep medical examination possible to the point of ridiculousness.

          • Salvador Nogueira

            Maybe McCoy got to detect it in two seconds after protocols for scanning developed by Dr. Culber. You know, medical tests are not magic; they test what they were designed to test. Culber had to come up with the tests. After that hard work, two seconds and a tricorder could do it. 😛

            (In all fairness, McCoy specifies that Darvin’s lifesigns are all klingon; maybe the plastic surgeons got lazy after ten years. LOL.)

            What about UESPA? We should talk about UESPA next… 😛

          • Snap

            McCoy specifically mentioned aspects such as blood pressure, body temperature and heart rate, those can be easily recorded with the technology of today. The equipment in Discovery’s sickbay would be able to record them far quicker than contemporary equipment and I would hazard a guess that sickbay’s bio sensors are as capable as a medical tricorder.

            You don’t need to know what is normal for a Klingon to know that something is not normal for a human. So while Culber (or other Discovery medical personnel) may not know that the readings are specifically Klingon, they would be well aware that they are not readings a human should produce.

            Unless they are poor physicians lacking the basic knowledge they would need to graduate medical school.

          • TG1701

            Yeah maybe but it still feel like a stretch to me. I mean if you have NO giveaways it just feels a bit ridiculous, especially because Klingons have had no real interaction with humans for a century. Now they have invented technology to the point not only can they look exactly like human but create basically a clone of one down to a blood cell? And exactly WHO knows how to even do this? L’Rell and her crackpot doctors that apparently told no one else? Yeah, OK, I’ll wait for any explanations but so far its a real stretch IMO.

        • Thomas Elkins

          “If they had that kind of technology why aren’t there tons of sleeping agents?”

          Because the tactic is dishonorable? House Mo’Kai was described as being a house of “deceivers,” and “weavers of lies”. Tactics the rest of the Empire saw as unfavorable. Besides we know they did use genetically modified Klingons to infiltrate Starfleet because we’ve seen Arne Darvin. He wasn’t really a sleeper agent who was programmed to think he was human though. He knew he was Klingon and he knew what his mission was That could be the difference between honorable and not honorable. In theory anyway.

          I suppose it could also be argued that Darvin was an Augment Virus Klingon, which meant he was already suited for infiltration. A “real” Klingon who still looks Klingon might not alter his appearance because it’s considered dishonorable. Then again Worf did say Darvin was altered on DS9, so who knows.

          • Nick

            Klingon spies in human form have been a thing since the original series. It might not make the most sense when you look at it really closely, but you can’t argue that it breaks canon.

          • TUP

            Thats also a very good point. Canon establishes that this has happened before (or in chronological order, will happen again).

        • TUP

          Plenty of ridiculous things on Star Trek. If they did a gender re-assignment surgery on TOS, viewers would say it was totally ridiculous. lol

          • TG1701

            But it would feel like crappy writing to me. Thats the problem.

      • Nick

        DISCOVERY introduces a genetic reason for the Klingons to have forehead ridges. In the past, the ridges have been used as identifying marks to help determine which house a Klingon belongs to. That’s still true in DISCOVERY, but now the ridges have extra-sensory receptors that help aid the Klingons in combat. In essence, the Klingons are apex predators and the ridges helped them achieve their place at the top of the food chain. That is the reason they are bald on DISCOVERY – if their ridges are covered by hair, then the receptors become useless. Of course, this explanation raises questions of its own, such as, “Then why did later Klingons have hair?”

        The creators of the show have also said that they wanted to diversify the Klingons. Not all of them grew up on Qo’noS. They wanted to show what Klingons who lived on a different planets, or lived within differing cultures, might look like.

        As for the medical scan issue, I’m content to argue that the Discovery is a less advanced ship than the Enterprise, and therefore didn’t have adequate medical equipment to discover the surgeries on an initial scan.

    • TUP

      Keep in mind we, as humans, use only X amount of our brains. Perhaps the Klingon spymasters were able to compress his brain by eliminating parts he didnt need.

      Also, while they have larger skulls, it doesnt mean that entire skull is filled with brain. They clearly arent much smarter than humans.

      • Captain Lorca, Section 31

        That’s a lie. We use 100% of our brains. That “we only use a portion of our brains” crap is well, crap. Been proven by science. Look it up

        • TUP

          Well yes, we use most of our brain. True. But the brain also is an amazing thing as far as healing.

          Maybe the Klingons use less. Maybe their skulls are thicker (which would make sense) and thus their brains are the same size or smaller. Who knows.

          The difference between Trek and Wars is that Trek is Science Fiction, not fantasy and we like it to be filtered through legitimate science. But sometimes, we have to suspend our disbelief a little especially when this plot point is no crazier or more absurd than other plot points in the canon.

    • Eric

      I’m still expecting them to bring in the augment virus from ENT. Voq is initially made to look human though it, but then needs to look exactly like the real Lt Tyler, even down to a dna test.

  • TG1701

    Hands down the best episode of the season. Frakes NAILED it!!! Good going man. This man is a great director.

    Loved all the easter eggs from TOS and Enterprise. Now I want to rewatch In a Mirror Darkly again. I know the Defiant came from TOS but I never seen that episode. Does anyone know the title of it? I might give that one a watch too to connect it all.

    • Tuskin38

      “The Tholian Web” is the episode title.

      • TG1701

        Wow that was fast lol. Thank you! Ok, I’m going to give that a watch and then rewatch Enterprise MU episodes again.

  • iMike

    It probably won’t happen … but it might be fun to have an episode where we see the ISS Discovery in our crew’s Prime universe, also trying to cope.

    • SpaceCadet

      But presumably we’ll see the repercussions of the ISS Discovery in the Prime universe because surely they’re going around mucking things up.

      • TUP

        It will make your brain melt to think about it. But if the ISS Discovery also has a spore drive, presumably to fend off the rebels, it sort of eliminates the advantage to having the USS Defiant in the MU.

        And the only reason tech shouldnt be FAR more advanced, based on reverse engineering the Defiant is because they didnt (either the ship was destroyed soon after In A Mirror Darkly, or Sato kept it all for herself.

        But even if she did, the Connie now exists in the normal passage of time so that advantage is gone.

  • Snap

    On thing which I don’t like, which you actually don’t see in the episode itself but it was clear on After Trek, is the redesigned Terran Empire emblem shows a globe of Earth with mirrored versions of the continents.

    The continents aren’t mirrored. The original emblem clearly shows the continents as they appear on Earth. Just because it is called the “mirror” universe does not mean things are literally a mirror.

    • Mike

      There are precedents for such logos in real life.

      https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/Shuttle-atlantis.jpg

      • Snap

        What does the space shuttle Enterprise have to do with it? Because the US flag is facing the other way?

        TOS
        http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/File:TerranEmpire.png

        Enterprise
        http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/File:TerranEmpire2.png

        • Nebula1701

          Take it as a visual gag. Sometimes art/set designers make things that they don’t expect to be dissected as such.

          • Snap

            But that’s not the point. The emblem symbolizes Earth, the center of the Terran Empire, they don’t consider themselves “mirror” and the continents are not physically mirrored.

          • Nebula1701

            It’s a gag. A play on “Mirror.” It has no impact on anything other than the emblem.

          • Snap

            In any event,. it’s a stupid gag and one which Trek has never had to make in the past.

          • Tuskin38

            I agree

          • Keith Melton

            ” it’s a stupid gag and one which Trek has never had to make in the past.”

            Worf’s joke in Trials and Tribulations would disagree with you.

          • Snap

            Granted, I forgot about that one.

          • TUP

            I didnt notice and I’d agree.

  • Tammy Rainey

    seeing this show’s take on he Conny was almost so exciting that nothing else mattered, even if it was just a graphic.

    I loved pretty much everything about this episode, other than the shock-death which….I dunno just didn’t work for me.

    Now I’m musing over whether Georgiou is Sato’s granddaughter (great-g?) in both universes, or is our mystery Emperor someone else entirely?

    • TUP

      A lot of people are going to want it to be Tiberius, which of course it isnt because that level of stunt casting would have leaked (especially from Mr Shatner!).

      Definitely its going to be Phillipa. And Im cool with her being related to Sato and use the Sato Dynasty story. Its actually a MU time line change that Sato took the Defiant and kept it for her line and thus, 100 years of rule.

      Could always have T’Pol guest star as well.

      • Captain Lorca, Section 31

        “Stunt casting?” Rofl.

        Shatner is a better actor than the entire cast of Discovery combined. His work as Denny Crane was incredible, and his portrayal of Kirk was nuanced on deep levels that gave soul to Star Trek.

        Quite literally, without Shatners acting acumen during TOS, Star Trek would never had succeeded with just the limited talents of Nimoy.

        Discovery would be BLESSED to get Shatner. He would absolutely “pop” the subscription numbers and if done right really tie up some loose ends between. ENT, STD, and TOS.

        • TUP

          Ummm…yeah, I agree. It would still be stunt casting.

          • Captain Lorca, Section 31

            I disagree. Having a Star the caliber of Shatner is never “stunt casting”

          • TUP

            By definition its stunt casting. Using a huge star in a smaller role for the purpose of garnering publicity.

            I love Shat. He’s an award winning actor. But casting him as the Emperor in a 1 or 2 episode arc would be stunt casting. It would be glorious. But it would still be a stunt. Because they’d cast him BECAUSE of who he is as a celebrity.

          • Captain Lorca, Section 31

            Do you feel this way about all precious guest stars? Was it a stunt when they used TOS spliced into DS9 for that Trimble episode?

          • TUP

            No. That was an episode not one actor. Look up the definition of stunt casting. Stop being obtuse. Apologize and move on.

          • Captain Lorca, Section 31

            Rofl, apologize for what? Are you Bill
            Shatner? I sense a massive ego

          • TUP

            Yes you do have a massive ego as evidenced by your continued insistence on arguing this point.

            You don’t know why stunt casting means and reacted improperly. I told you what it meant and you decided to keep arguing rather then comprehend my meaning

            If you can’t apologize for being wrong so be it. Speaks to your character.

            Shatner would be wonderful in any role. He’s great.

            But it would be stunt casting. Which isn’t a bad thing. It is what it is. And now you know. You’re welcome.

  • Eric Cheung

    Star Trek: Discovery is back!

    I thought it was a cool and realistic take on how dangerous and scary being in the Mirror Universe would be. Past Mirror Universe episodes have played up the campy and sexy elements, while there is none of that here. My girlfriend made the astute observation that this episode treated the Mirror Universe like the show The Americans (though without the sex, as of yet). It certainly shows the dangerous tension inherent in undercover spycraft.

    This episode was dark, but it was also hilarious, and the reasons for both were due to the ways in which it totally surprised the audience.

    We also, finally get to see what this show’s idea of what a Constitution-class ship looks like. I’ll say that it reminded me of the way Lorca’s presentation to Burnham on the capabilities of the spore drive reinterpreted the look of iconic TOS imagery. You could argue that ENT did something similar with some slight reinterpretation by changing the Defiant’s lighting and updating the computers with a consistent OS GUI.

    The breakout moments come from the different roles the show’s counterparts have, and how our heroes have to play such parts that are so different from who they believe themselves to be. If my phraseology is awkward and evasive, it’s because I don’t want to the most fun subplot of the episode!

  • Thomas Elkins

    The Discovery crew is trying to figure out how the USS Defiant ended up in that universe so they can use the knowledge to get home. The Tholians did it by detonating a tri-cobalt device within the gravity well of a dead star. The Defiant was pulled through time and space though, so they’re going to have to take that into consideration. They might end up in their own universe, but in another time if they’re not careful.

    Then again, they might not have to recreate their actual experiment and just use whatever information they have on the created interphasic rift and use the Spore Drive to get home. IF the Spore Drive is able to travel through time. I’m sure it will do whatever the plot demands of it though.

    Sounds like they’re going to meet this faceless Emperor. One of Stamets’ outbursts was something about warning them from going into the palace. Sounds like the kind of place you’d find an Emperor. I’m curious to know if the USS Defiant is even still around. It would be neat if we got to see her again. I’m sure the Terrans have made some modifications to over the last 100 years.

    • TUP

      I assumed we wouldnt see the Defiant because it would committ them to a Connie design (although it could have been refit many times in the MU over 100 years).

      But the bigger question is why hasnt tech advanced far more in the MU (and in the original Mirror Mirror episode) if they had advanced tech for 100 years? Two possible answers: The Defiant didnt last long. or Sato did not allow it to be reverse engineered because she wanted to keep the powerful tech for herself. Then we could still have a 100 year old Defiant with no other advanced tech.

      And then, Discovery *should* destroy it. In essence, it would mean the Defiant screwed up the MU timeline, allowing Sato and her people to remain in power for 100 years. If Discovery destroys Defiant, especially if its the only example of the technology outside of the regular Connie tech (which would now exist), they remove the “Defiant Advantage” and give hope to the rebels, which Spock eventually takes over.

      You cant think of it too hard though. Its really ridiculous. Just have to have fun with it.

      • Thomas Elkins

        “or Sato did not allow it to be reverse engineered because she wanted to keep the powerful tech for herself. Then we could still have a 100 year old Defiant with no other advanced tech.”

        I would bet this. Admiral Black straight up told Archer that he intended to dismantle Defiant and reverse engineer the technology. Archer then vaporized him and assumed command of the Defiant himself. Hoshi would later kill Archer and take the ship from him, declaring herself Empress. It just seems like the Defiant’s strength is what kept them in power, so they never bothered to dismantle her. Considering how quick people are to turn on one another, they may have wanted to keep the Defiant active at all times.

        • TUP

          Its the easiest way to explain why there hasnt been advanced tech.

          It would be great to see Defiant in battle with the Discovery. And have them destroy Defiant ending the Dynasty and putting the MU back on a regular track where their tyranny can be suitably challenged.

          Maybe they’ll learn the Spore Drive can also jump time and they go back to “Enterprise” and destroy the Defiant there…

          • Captain Lorca, Section 31

            The Constution Class outguns Discovery 5-1. Unless they torture stamets some more and use their jumping gimmick there is no way a science ship can defeat the Constution class

  • Trent

    They sure are lucky the Data Core had such detailed files on their mirror universe counterparts .What is wrong with that Defiant graphic?

  • Captain Lorca, Section 31

    A diasaster. They should not have done the mirror universe stuff until later seasons. Utterly confused my non-Trek friends who have up until now been watching Discovery. It’s their first Star Trek outside of the JJ Trek movies. They still This this show is set in the JJ verse – and that’s why they watch it. It’s sad.

    Anyway, they should have built up the characters more so it actually means something the mirror counterparts. Like season 4 or sonething. The Tyler/Voq stuff is beyond absurd and uninteresting.
    I am glad Culber is dead as the onscreen relationship has made my parents uncomfortable in watching the show. Phasing out such elements will only grow the shows fanbase and ratings, and subscriptions of all access in my opinion. They were planning on canceling, but have decided to keep it based on his death. Different strokes for different folks. They are allowed to have their opinions.

    I really hope this all leads to some kind of big reset where we can actually go to the real prime universe and the real Klingons. I still see no reason at all they changed the entire race. Their ships are soulless and uninteresting.

    The show has a very bleak feeling and warlike. I really want the show to calm down and get to actual peaceful exploring and discovering new things and people. Star Trek is at its best when it is following its core values. What made it so popular in the first place.

    • Kirksdeadjim

      Ha!Ha!Ha! Oh wait a minute…you are actually being serious!

      • Captain Lorca, Section 31

        Yea I am, why do you think I am not serious?

        • TUP

          Maybe for the reasons I stated. Pretend there is no prior use of MU. In this episode they explain what is happening.

          The only thing they dont explain is the details surrounding the Defiant but its not really important to the story at this point.

    • TUP

      Who knows what we’d have if Fuller had stayed but there has been plenty of speculation that the things fans dislike the most were Fuller ideas (Klingons, uniforms, war story etc).

      As for being confused by he Mirror, I’ll grant that if you are a Trek fan and know the MU, it’s perhaps more interesting. But they clearly say its a different universe. They friggen explain what is happening.

      Your complaint would be akin to when you saw Mirror Mirror for the first time and claimed to be utterly confused.

      • Captain Lorca, Section 31

        Let’s be honest – the fans who started with the Kelvin stuff are
        Not the brightest bulbs in the box you know? They see the fancy lens flares and big explosions and try hard to not check just ONE MORE text on their phone during the movie. It’s like they had to create the JJ Trek movies for drug users, with almost constant action and violence to hold their attention.

        If they are trying to hook JJ verse fans, they just lost them by going to the mirror universe and confusing them.

    • Snap

      As long as the Trek series is Discovery, Fuller’s name will be in the credits as he is one of the creators. It would be like saying you didn’t want to see Gene Roddenberry’s name in the credits. Gene Roddenberry has clearly had no hands on involvement with any Trek post-TNG, but every series or movie are derivative of his work so he gets due credit.

      Fuller, likewise, had hands on involvement with Discovery up until his departure so as long as the show is set aboard Discovery and features the characters he created, he will be credited. To expect otherwise is illogical.

  • Kirksdeadjim

    Note to all Starfleet medical officers….whenever telling a crewmember the unfortunate news that they have been brainwashed or transformed into an enemy sleeper agent,please do so with security officers present.Do not i repeat DO NOT do this when you are alone with said crewmember.

    • Eric

      Haha! I was thinking the exact same thing! As I watch the scene, my mind was four steps ahead. I knew Culber was gonna die as soon as he mention the extent of the torture. I instantly thought, “How could you presume to tell Tyler this without a security detail to restrain him?” This was obviously done to advance the plot, as it would have complicated getting Tyler on the ISS Shenzhou with Burnham and Lorca.

      But, yeah that was a dumb move for the character who the writers say is one of the most perceptive on ship.

      I have to say, I really like where this is going.

      • TUP

        Because he didnt know exactly what had happened. He didnt know Tyler was a Klingon sleeper agent. He had no way of knowing Tyler would violently attack him.

    • Captain Lorca, Section 31

      He did it on purpose because he wanted to die and become the “force mushroom” version of his character so he can talk to stamets in his head at anytime.

  • Eric

    OK, I just learned there is a novel out there called Glass Empire that says the mirror universe dynasty started by Hoshi Sato lasts for about 100 years. Here’s my prediction: the DSC writers took that potential plot point – as they have with other ideas from novels – and made Philippa Georgiou Sato’s (great?) grand-daughter and the last emperor of the Sato dynasty. They’re both Asian, which creates a subtle visual connection, and it’s a way of developing another personal dramatic conflict for Michael Burnham. She already had kill a mirror Danby Connor just to survive. It also keeps the theme of strong female and people of color characters, albeit villainous in this case. I also think there will be at least three episodes in the mirror universe, if not all of chapter two (six episodes). So there it is… my prediction. Bring it!!

    • Simon

      They seem to go out of their way to avoid saying who the Emperor is – and also don’t say what happened to Captain Georgiou. Interesting point.

    • Captain Lorca, Section 31

      This would be a disaster if it were Georgiou. A little too convient.

      I also find it highly offensive if they are suggesting that Asian people ( of which I am ) have been evil for 100 years, and they have a evil “dynasty”

      Anyone who understands Asians would realize how offensive the usage of “Dynasty” in such a situation would be.

      • Eric

        Wow, that is something to think about. And yes, that’s crossed my mind. As a person of color myself (black) I think about this kind of stuff a lot. My only caveat would be in the Star trek mirror universe, humans are pretty much all villains. Only in the future DS9 version when Terrans have lost the war, are some humans a bit more heroic, e.g. Smiley O’Brien. Once it was establish in TOS that humans lived in a Empire, it was inevitable that there be an Emporer. I think ENT was attempting to invert gender norms and the sexism inherent in TOS by making Hoshi, the only human female in the main cast, the Emperor.

        • Captain Lorca, Section 31

          The problem is see is that it’s established that power changes hands very quickly in the evil mirror universe. Remember how quickly Sato obtained power?

          It’s very unrealistic to assume that Sato and her decedents would hold onto power for 100 years in such a situation. Literally everyone is stabbing everyone in the back to obtain power.

          This implies the writers are suggesting Asian people are the most brutal and savage in the mirror universe, and have set up a “dynasty” which is offensive.

          As a black person, imagine is they said you guys set up a “tribe” for 100 years.

          • Simon

            “Dynasty” isn’t used exclusively to refer to Asian peoples (nor is “tribe” as Native Americans will tell you). There was a rather popular TV show in the ’80s without a single Asian character in it.
            Half my family is Asian or of Asian descent. It didn’t even occur to me to be offended. You’re also reading far too much into it for the suggestion that Asians would be the most “brutal and savage” since EVERYONE in that Universe is like that.

          • Captain Lorca, Section 31

            Yea, but holding on for a 100 years would require being brutal and savage on a level way beyond everyone else.

          • TUP

            The idea of a Sato Dynasty is that she had the ship. Who knows, Discovery might establish that the second the Enterprise episode faded to black, Mayweather stabbed Sato in the back. Who knows.

            But if they borrow the novel idea, then Sato uses the power of the Defiant to hold onto control of the Empire and seemingly pass that on to whomever she deems (or whomever kills her and takes over).

            The idea of it as a Dynasty would be to imply that the quick killings implied would be over because whomever controlled Defiant, controlled the Empire and Sato keeps a close hold on it and surrounds herself with people she trusts.

          • Eric

            1. I think “Captain Lorca’s” concerns are legitimate. Treacherous dynastic Asians is a stereotype and a trope in popular media.

            2. It is true that, among native Africans (of which I am not), the term tribe is no longer in favor. They call them ethnic groups. But tribes have different connotations and wouldn’t be used in the same context as dynasty. The more pressing issue with the trope is not the term, but the lack of nuance and complexity in its use. But, I get the analogy, totally. I wonder though, that if its done with Michelle Yeoh that it could be done, if the writers really consider it, so well, that it renders stereotype mute.

            3. Again, all the human characters in the mirror universe in ENT and TOS were treacherous and racist and imperialistic. ENT especially played this more for it’s comedic effect then TOS or even DS9 (though it was definitely there in DS9).

            4. This reminds me of one of the rumored debates on the casting of Benedict Cumberbach as Khan. Since Khan was originally Indian/middle-eastern, they wanted, in our jihad fearing society, to avoid any direct allusions. As most of us would agree, that was a disaster. I would have preferred if they had left Khan alone altogether. But if they HAD to touch it, Khan shouldn’t have been a British white guy. He should have been Benicio del Toro, like Ricardo Montalban; using a Latin accent, playing someone Asian!!!

          • Captain Lorca, Section 31

            They should have went with a Middle eastern actor and stop fearing terrorist thugs who warp the religion of Islam

          • Eric

            I agree.

          • Lee O.

            No. 4 is actually a very good example where the fear of offending certain ethnic groups led to them whitewashing a character (who, to be fair, was kind of whitewashed already) and in the process ended up offending minorities and SJWs anyway.

        • Lee O.

          “I think ENT was attempting to invert gender norms and the sexism inherent in TOS by making Hoshi, the only human female in the main cast, the Emperor.”

          I think this was actually more of an in-joke, since both Hoshi and Travis were the most underutilized characters on that show and their mirror versions basically took revenge and are the only two left standing by the end.

          • Eric

            Your statement here is not incompatible with my own. Some would say that from a real world perspective, that two actors of color, one a woman, were two of the more under-served characters is a sign of the systemic nature of sexism and racism in popular media.

          • Lee O.

            You could say that, but I’m not sure it really applies here, considering the same people that worked on this show also worked on Voyager; DS9 and TNG where that wasn’t a problem. I think in this case it was really just a matter of bad writing and not knowing how to utilize the characters anymore. The same thing happened on Voyager, virtually every character vanished into the background in favor of the two leading ladies (Janeway & Seven) and the quirky bald hologram.

      • Eric Watson

        I’m Asian too. A Sato dynasty is not racist. Relax. If “evil” Archer were emperor last we saw, we’d be talking of am Archer dynasty.

        • Captain Lorca, Section 31

          I think they would use another term instead of dynasty for archer as he is. It Asian

          • mr joyce

            the word ‘dynasty’ is not used exclusively just to describe parts of asian society, youre jumping the gun a little bit here

      • TUP

        Do you think if Phillipa is evil (we know Sato was) making TWO evil Asian characters is indicative of an implication that ALL Asians are evil? Thats absurd.

        If they are related, it makes sense. if they arent, its just a turn of coincidence.

        • Captain Lorca, Section 31

          There could be 4 generations there. We know how frequent the turnover is In the mirror universe 😉

      • Lee O.

        I think you are grasping at straws. Would you say the same thing if it were Archer’s heirs and it was implied that white men are the most brutal people in the universe? You could just as easily say, that it is offensive because it is suggesting, women are the more brutal gender, since you have a dynasty of strong women.

        • Eric

          Lee, as I said in other posts, I think Captain Lorca’s concerns are quite legit. In American media, white men have for so long been at the center of so many of the stories, that white male characters are always seen as simply “human characters.” White men have had so many various character options that no one would even think twice at being villain or hero. This is what white male privilege basically looks like. People of color and women often have to think really hard about this because for so long the depth and complexity of human characterization was just not an option.

          • Lee O.

            Yes, but the thing is, if Georgiou does indeed turn out to be the evil Emperor, it will not have anything to do with her being Asian or a woman, but with her being a crucial mentor character for Michael. It would have a huge dramatic effect. Also, if she acts all cartoony stereotypical evil, it won’t be because of her skin tone, but because its the mirror universe, where everyone acts like an evil cartoon. Wouldn’t it be racist to leave Georgiou out, because of just her ethnicity?

            Ethnic minorities can now play complex characters, be it heroes, anti-heroes, villains or tragic characters or the comic relief or a mixture of some of them. That’s huge and awesome. People have fought for that with all their heart and it’s a reality now, However, saying that an actor should not play a certain role, because of his/her ethnicity, isn’t that kind of defeating the purpose and actually promoting racist thinking? Especially on a show like this which has a lot of characters that represent minorities in prominent, fleshed out roles (be it Michael Burnham – a woman of color or Paul Stamets – a homosexual man, Philippa Georgiou – an asian woman) this seems just ridiculous to me. Not to mention that the franchise itself is known for casting “minorities” in prominent roles for decades now.

          • Eric

            Lee, i just wanted us to not dismiss ”Captain Lorca’s” complaints because they are inconvenient. In the end, I think Emperor Georgiou makes real sense given what we know of the mirror universe, and it’s dramatic power for Burnham. I wouldn’t call nit casting her “racist,” just maybe short-sighted.

          • Lee O.

            No, of course not. I don’t want to ignore inconvenient complaints as long as they are valid. But I feel in this case Captain Lorca’s fears simply aren’t warranted, in part because this show and franchise have gone out of their way to promote multi-culturalism and people of ethnic minorties in prominent non-stereotypical roles.

            Also, the “racist” comment was admittedly exaggerated to illustrate that point.

  • CAPTAIN D-MAN

    Captain Tilly is on top of my star trek babes list now.

  • Neville Smeda

    Brilliant episode. Been so excited over the past week for chapter 2 after a hiatus, and it didn’t disappoint. Love Jonathan Frakes as a director! I’m glad we are seeing more of the Tyler/V’oq storyline, as that is something I’ve been curious about since V’oq’s disappearance. What I loved about this episode is the amount of storylines it covered. In an episode of TOS or TNG, you usually got one storyline that monopolized the whole episode, or sometimes a “B story”. From the L’rell/Tyler relationship, to the Burnham/Tyler connection, to the emotions felt by Burnham at killing Connor for a 2nd time, to Tilly having to gain strength for command, to the Stamets transition, to Culver dying….so many storylines in 45mins. Just brilliant!

    Did anyone else think that Lorca’s accent sounded very much like Scotty?

    Also, like LeVar Burton played Captain LaForge on a Voyager episode while directing it too…..maybe Jonathan Frakes plays Emperor Riker (Will’s grandfather). How neat would that be?! (although I’m siding more with the realistic approach of it being Empress Georgiou). Can’t wait for next week.

  • Captain Lorca, Section 31

    Hopefully since the doctor is dead and is now a “force mushroom” we can actually finally get to see the Chief medical officer instead of some lower tier scrub who made a basic mistake in dropping such news without security present.

  • Captain Lorca, Section 31

    Am I the only one who is wishing that the emperor is actually a very early design of the Soong variety?

    Arik Soong I think he was called played by Brent Spiner did great in ENT, and the final scene showed where the design of what would eventually become Data begun – in a prison cell.

    It would be awesome to see him portray some kind of warped early version of a Soong Android that is twisted and cruel, and he could do it because he could look like anything. He said he won’t be Data again cause he is too old to portray him because Data does not age.

    I am sure in 100 years the Soong family as brilliant as they are made significant progress, but I am sure there were huge mistakes that made Lore seem like a tame kitten.

    • TUP

      Assuming the Emperor is “someone” and it seems clear they are, it really has to be someone contemporary to Discovery.

      Tiberius is a great idea but of course, we know he’s Captain of the Enterprise later.

      Mirror Archer is dead. Sato would be too (or be incredibly old). T’Pol would work but she’s a Vulcan (though she’d be GREAT in this storyline as a rebel leader or being held as a prisoner/companion/plaything of the Empress because she was there when the Defiant was discovered).

      So Philippa it is.

      • Captain Lorca, Section 31

        What about my idea?

        • TUP

          Its plausible but I dont really like it to be honest. It would be odd for the leader of the human empire to be an android. Although, it might make sense if he idealized humans as Data did.

          But either way, its going to be Phillipa.

          • Captain Lorca, Section 31

            PHILLIPA is too predicible and well, boring. I am not saying Spiner portray Data; but a twisted early prototype that can
            Look completely different. Spiner would have a mask, or heavy makeup.

          • TUP

            Your idea is random and terrible.

          • Captain Lorca, Section 31

            So sue me. My idea is having better connection between ENT and STD, with an actor who is far more talented than the wooden Michelle Yeoh.

          • TUP

            It’s not a good idea. Both are good actors even if your ego only allows you to compliment the one you like. Reminds me someone actually.

        • Eric

          Do you mean (1) a biological descendant of Arik Soong, (2) a augment human designed by Soong, or (3) a early cybernetic android type designed by Soong?

          If you mean an adroid, Brent Spiner has said he didn’t think he could play “Data” anymore because of his age. I just think that wouldn’t sell again. I would also like to see some different Veteran Trek guest stars before Spiner. He is awesome; I just want to see others before him again. All of this only if it’s done really well.

          • TUP

            The good thing about Data’s look is, it would likely not be too difficult to CGI data. Of course, not on a TV budget. But for a film, Spiner could “play” him with CGI to make him look like TNG.

            But I agree. I think in this particular plot, its “deep” enough. Phillipa being the Empress is self-explanatory to this audience. Making it Soong requires more exposition.

          • Eric

            Even Bruce Greenwood as Emperor Christopher Pike would be better then Spiner.

            Of course, they could also easily just introduce a non alumnus to play a completely new character.

          • TUP

            Im dying to see Bruce Greenwood as Captain Pike again. Its a no-brainer for Season 2!

            They could. But we know its going to be Phillipa. Im also wondering if Mirror Burnham is dead. Maybe Phillipa kidnapped her for some reason. So when Prime Burnham shows up pretending to be Mirror Burnham to trick Empress Geirgeou, she gets a surprise when the real Mirror Burnham walks out.

          • FightingMongooses

            I think the Emperor will be Phillipa. And I suspect Mirror Burnham is alive and will run into our Burnham. Hijinks will ensue.

          • Snap

            Yeah, there are clues which do point to that, such as the Emperor destroying the Buran in retaliation for Burnham’s shuttle being destroyed.

          • Captain Lorca, Section 31

            3, but he does not look like Data yet

      • pittrek

        Well they promised us more previously established characters. It wouldn’t surprise me if the emperor was Emperor Kirk, father of JTK or something like that. Would be a nice chance to get a Shatner cameo

        • Captain Lorca, Section 31

          Imagine how hard Shatner would ham it up if he was “Emperor Kirk”. His head would explode from his ego

          • TUP

            They should make Emperor Kirk gay and black just to make your head explode.

  • Robert Hammen

    Welp, it seems clear that the Captain Lorca we’ve seen was from the Mirror Universe all along. Think of his scene with the Admiral – “You’re not the same man I knew” – the scars, the hidden phaser, the eyes (correlation with Stamets?). And think about him seeking out Burnham. The backstory fill-in from the Mirror Universe makes it more clear _why_ he needed her. And the little “course change” scene on the last jump. Not sure how he got into the “regular” universe, but he clearly wanted to get back. Was he hoping to use Discovery and the Spore Drive to assassinate the Emperor/Empress?

    • TUP

      Im not sure. I figured he was NOT Mirror Lorca all along but we do have some unanswered questions, namely the scarring. Unless it was simply meant to show us that he had been in some shit.

      Perhaps when the Buran exploded there was an anomaly and Lorcas swapped places? Maybe we’ll find Prime Lorca being held by the Emperor because she knows they will eventually come for her…with even better technology.

  • David Lund

    Good lord that was a superb episode? Loved it all – Captain Tilly, Mirror Universe, Lorca seeming to know more about it than he’s letting in, poor Culber! And Connor! And the Defiant!

    Now I’m also sure I’ve seen that design for a Constitution class before – I can’t find it online but I’m sure in a Trek art book somewhere I’ve got a picture of a Matt Jeffries sketch when he was designing the Enterprise and it had this booms on the nacelles and that angle change. If so, it’s another use of ‘alternate’ designs for the E – both the Defiant and Discovery use designs that weren’t used. Is this a nice tip of the hat for the fans, or suggesting something deeper…?

  • Two favorite parts –

    Lorca using a Scottish brogue as the engineer to disguise who he was. I thought that was a nice little touch. Especially interesting to hear a man, who no doubt had heard that accent much growing up, doing his authentic spin on it. I appreciated that.

    And second coolest part…..gotta admit I thought those agony booths were wicked cool. Actually, that was my favorite part.

  • Eric

    I think DSC is prime universe (it is because the producers say that it is), but with a visual upgrade. So expected that the Constitution would have a visual upgrade that had no impact on canon. I think, as others have said, every instance of returning back to the 60s look of TOS in the other series was more of an HOMAGE then DSC can be. Discovery is set in that world and I think the upgrade is necessary. Some upgrades should be explained and some should not. There are some changes I like more then others. Like, the general ship design I think is great. I think if they had simply used the colors of The Cage uniforms with the new design that would have been better and more respectful. I am glad there is a small upgrade to the Constitution Class design,just enough that feels consistent with both TOS and DSC. New Star trek needs to look like our future and TOS, regardless of how nostalgic we are about it’s place in our lives, DOES NOT look like our future.

    • TUP

      I dont disagree. I think we’ll see the TOS uniforms. It came out that they originally made TOS style uniforms but changed their minds. Probably due to confusion with the JJ films…plus its a visual change to show transitioning to the Kirk era.

      I did notice last night though “man, this show is BLUE!”. lol

      • David Lund

        Apparently the blue tint is deliberate and will become more colourful each year – a visual transition from Enteeprise to TOS.

      • Eric

        I should say that in general I like the DSC prime universe blue uniforms. I really like their black and gold mirror universe versions. WOW! But I just wish they had been more connected since this is suppose to be happening after Pike’s experiences in “The Cage.”

        • TUP

          yeah, I expect them to provide a reason for the difference in uniforms. We have to assume both are being used right now. Why? Who knows.

          • Thomas Elkins

            Eh, for the same reason TNG and DS9 uniforms were worn at the same time for a number of years. At the time I thought TNG uniforms were Starship operations and DS9 was Starbase operations, but then Generations showed them switching to the DS9 uniform and Voyager’s crew all had the DS9 uniform, so it comes off as a slow transition.

            They could say the Discovery uniform was the standard uniform and then they began transitioning over to The Cage uniforms. Since the Constitution-class was supposed to be incredibly prestigious, it makes sense a crew like the Enterprise crew would have been given the upgrades first.

            If that makes sense.

          • Mark Andersen

            Actually, that’s exactly how they explain it in the tie-in novel Desperate Hours.

          • Thomas Elkins

            Nice. I wonder how long it will be until the Discovery crew upgrades then. They do keep saying that certain visuals will progress closer to TOS as time goes on. Maybe Season 2?

    • Thomas Elkins

      You’re semi-right. When they introduced TOS aesthetic on newer shows it was because that is how the TOS era looks in the canon. TNG and future shows weren’t a reboot, they were a continuation of the original show and that’s why they always respected what came before. Discovery doesn’t do that, it just changes things for the sake of change and it’s incredibly stupid.

      You are right that it was somewhat of an homage though. You see, they didn’t just recreate the original stuff because it was canon, but because it was fun to go back to the 1960s aesthetic. It was going back in time and having fun in their version of the future. Think of it like Tom Paris having fun playing Captain Proton on the holodeck. He actually says it’s exciting because it’s how people in the 30s and 40s envisioned the future and playing in black in white with cheesy effects and dialog was what made it fun.

      TNG at the time was obviously a modern take on Star Trek, but they didn’t reboot the original look. They chose to push the show forward and say things look different because it’s further into the future. Looking back we can see the 80s influence on some of TNG’s aesthetic and we can see 90s influence on Voyager’s. That’s just how it is. Each generation of Trek is like a time capsule for the era it existed in and that’s why it’s fun to go back to it from time to time.

      If they wanted a modern Star Trek for 2017 then they should have done what the others did and jumped FORWARD in time. About 90% of the things I hate about Discovery wouldn’t have been a problem had it been set post-Voyager. That way they could keep continuity intact and they could have had those fun episodes that jumped back to the 60s TOS aesthetic or the 80s TNG aesthetic as not only references to previous canon, but a nostalgic journey in real world sci-fi, like Captain Proton.

      A visual reboot was unnecessary and no one will ever convince me that it was.

      • Eric

        A visual update (I don’t want to use reboot, because I think it confuses it with the Kelvin timeline) was necessary since they decided to set it a mere ten years before Kirk and Company’s five year mission. Sure, the obvious way to avoid that would be to go forward. I agree, but they chose this time period because it was Bryan Fuller’s vision to fill in some of the gaps. Its risky business, but I appreciate that. They claim that many if not all the apparent breaks from canon will be explained before the series ends.

        I value visual consistency, but I value dramatic genius more.

        • pittrek

          “A visual update
          was necessary since they decided to set it
          a mere ten years before Kirk and Company’s five year mission”

          Well shouldn’t that be actually a reason why NOT do a visual update?

          • Eric

            I’d rather they take the chance and lead into Kirk and his crew then not touch this era out fear that we would criticize them. Like Jason Isaacs has said, they knew die-hard fans would watch it even just to complain and say how much we hate it.

            For the record I like the show and I am having a ball.

          • pittrek

            Well I had to learn how to NOT think this is Star Trek, that’s the only way how I can enjoy the show

          • TUP

            It aint the 60s anymore. And Enterprise already updated the visuals.

            Here’s the thing. People fondly remember three years of TOS from the 60’s. I do too. I love it.

            But those three years are a drop in the bucket to everything else.

            Enterprise, Kelvin, Franklin…TMP etc. They all show us a universe where the visuals are drastically updated from the 60’s. So if DIscovery was true to the 60’s, they’d be picking the outlier. TOS is the one that doesnt fit, not everything else. Everything else fits.

          • Its so hard to get folks to understand that TOS is the oddball that does not fit.

        • Thomas Elkins

          That’s my whole point though. They didn’t NEED a prequel. If they wanted a modern Trek, then it should have been modern. There was no need to return to a classic era if they had no interest in being faithful to said era.

          • Snap

            I agree.

            Or they should have just said it was going to be a new take on Star Trek which would utilize familiar elements..People may still not have liked certain things like the look of the ship or general aesthetic, but it wouldn’t have had any preconceptions working against it when they decide to go in a different direction.

          • TUP

            I believe thats exactly what they said.

          • Snap

            But that’s where things are confusing. If it is a “new take” on Trek, then it isn’t shoehorning itself into the timeline and saying “these events happened at this specific time and had these repercussions” which are never felt by previous Trek. A “new take” is like the modern Battlestar Galactica compared to the original.

            In my experience, however, even suggesting that Discovery is a new take and it’s own thing is considered a “dirty word” and has had labels like “troll” or “liar” slung my way. It’s almost as though the thought of it not being the exact same universe as TOS (which some of the people thumb their noses at) is not only unreasonable but inconceivable.

            Yet, it’s perfectly acceptable for the Kelvin movies. The only difference is the Kelvin movies were honest about their premise.

            While watching Discovery, it falls short if I try to watch it as post-Cage but pre-Kirk in the TOS timeline which led to the TNG era. You would even have to pick and choose with Enterprise, because the Klingons do not fit with the events in Enterprise, especially as other people have argued that the Discovery Klingons cannot be the same species as the Westmore Klingons and could not possibly co-exist.

            So, Discovery basically takes all of the elements of Trek which work within its format and discards the rest. That, alone, is a strong argument that it is a third but equally valid incarnation of Trek. People just want it to be “prime” and are unwilling to not only entertain the possibility that it is not but also refuse to let others view it as such, while themselves picking and choosing which elements of canon to accept based on whether they personally like it or not.

            So, it’s confusing if Discovery has been stated to be a “new take” but also “the same universe” which just does not make sense.

          • TUP

            I disagree. It didnt really matter to me what era they chose. I think a lot of people (not saying you specifically) have an irrational sense that Trek must “go forward” in time which it doesnt.

            I feel that going beyond Nemesis creates the problem of disassociation. If people dislike the technology in Discovery, imagine if the series was post Nemesis. We’d have mind controlled ships and Holo crews and all sorts of tech that removes the drama and tension.

            Everytime TNG had a Holodeck episode the catch was the same – safe guards were disabled. Otherwise there was no drama or tension.

            Could writers do a post Nem series justice? Sure. But I really dont think the idea of “anything goes” from a technology stand point serves the drama very well.

            As it is, they are faithful to the era in so many ways. And even when they update things like the Alert symbol, they used TMP. To say they are disregarding the era is fundamentally wrong.

            And we shouldnt even have to discuss it anymore. Its done.

          • Thomas Elkins

            “Could writers do a post Nem series justice? Sure. But I really dont think the idea of “anything goes” from a technology stand point serves the drama very well.”

            Honestly, when I hear stuff like this it just comes off as “we’re not good enough writers to do anything new, so we’ll just play it safe and retread old ground.” Technology isn’t preventing anyone from telling dramatic stories, their inability to come up with something fresh is.

            “As it is, they are faithful to the era in so many ways. And even when they update things like the Alert symbol, they used TMP. To say they are disregarding the era is fundamentally wrong.”

            Well they completely destroyed the Klingons, but they used the TMP Red Alert symbol so it’s all good.

          • TUP

            Hahahaha they didn’t destroy the klingons. You can’t be taken seriously when you say that. It renders everything else you said moot.

          • Thomas Elkins

            Well they’re bald, four nostriled, earless, purple people eaters who talk like they’re always chewing marshmallows and buy all their ships surplus from the Goa’uld. Next the Borg will be cockroaches and the Jem’Hadar will be fluffy bunnies, but hey I’m sure you’ll be ok with it.

          • TUP

            Feel free to continue the discussion when you’re rational. Until then you’re whispering into the wind cause there is no credibility to your point.

      • Mark Andersen

        Regarding jumping forward, I fully agree. I’ve said to my friends all season that if they set DSC 100 years after Voyager, get rid of the family ties to Spock and call those aliens something other than Klingons I wouldn’t have any issues with the show. That said, I just rewatched chapter 1 in prep for chapter 2 and now that I’m used to it, I can put those issues aside and enjoy the show for what it is.

      • TUP

        We can argue whether they should have used a different era (post Nemesis). But they didnt (and even then, they’d include visual changes).

        They simply could not present the TOS era on screen in 2018 the way it aired in the 60’s. Would diehard Trek fans like it? Sure. But be real. No TV exec in his right mind would okay that.

        Its a visual update. Do I love all the holo things? Not really. But not because of the tech, because I dont like it whether its TOS era or 500 years later.

        Star Trek is always us…evolved. It cant be science fantasy. It gets dangerously close to that from time to time. So it has to take OUR science and tech and evolve it.

    • Snap

      I want to preface this by saying that while I may not agree with everything, I respect your opinions. I, personally, don’t se Discovery as “prime” in the sense that TOS through Voyager is “prime” as there are just too many liberties taken, change for the sake of change and stuff which really does not mesh.

      It objectively plays out like a reboot of Star Trek, picking and choosing which elements it wants to keep and discarding others. Yes, we would find inconsistencies with every other incarnation, but not on the scale as we see with Discovery.

      So, that’s how I view it and it plays so much better than trying to shoehorn it into “prime.” I would actually say the same applies to Enterprise, but that is the problem you get when you put a prequel into the mix and involve major events which will have never been referenced before and can only rationalise it with the hand wave of “it was classified” or the ever popular negative evidence which has become a bad cliche for stuff with modern Star Trek.

      I like Discovery for what it is, though it is nowhere near my favourite when it comes to Star Trek content, it just doesn’t hold up to the essence of the franchise, at least not yet. But there are elements which I appreciate, things like the summons over the intercom in the background of scenes which aren’t just directed to the featured characters, to the updated sound effects evoking a TOS feel as well as many of the graphics used through-out the show.

      Where Discovery falls, in my opinion, is when they feel the need to change elements which don’t need to be changed. The Terran Empire emblem, for instance, makes no sense in the Discovery version. The delta doesn’t really mean anything to them and putting an upside down delta in the Terran Empire emblem is just cheesy beyond belief (sure, much of TOS is cheesy beyond belief, but I digress) and there was absolutely nothing wrong with the sword-in-globe emblem iterations used in TOS and Enterprise.

      On the other hand, I really like that they didn’t just use slightly altered versions of the Discovery uniforms for the mirror version, though it’s just a shame that the better looking uniforms are the ones which are only around for the short term.

      • Eric

        Is it enough to ‘feel’ that DSC is not prime universe when the writers’ say it is? I notice you said it’s not prime, and you don’t say it’s not canon.

        Anyway, I honestly get it. I love that one of the things that make Star Trek a unique franchise is how large it is (750+ episodes) while being far more coherent then most. That’s hard work and dedicaton. But one of the problems with that is that we the fans become obsessed with continuity and expect it to be pretty much perfect. I want to know what happened in these unknown years. Another great example is the Earth-Romulan War. The price for going back returning to a time so close to Kirk and Company is this need for upgrade. As I have written before, I think the uniform thing was an easy fix. I also hope the general issues of the augment disease effected Klingons ought to be addressed and I think they can still do it. But I am not upset that there is a different look. I want to see an upgraded Constitution bridge, not the old one. It look more like the Kelvin version, given out abilities. I want to see the uniforms upgrade with the red, blue and gold/green colors.

        In the end I want great stories, great allegory to contemporary issues, compelling character development with serialized plots. All with an increasing commitment to a Utopian future.

        • Snap

          “Is it enough to ‘feel’ that DSC is not prime universe when the writers’
          say it is? I notice you said it’s not prime, and you don’t say it’s not
          canon.”

          Writer intent means absolutely nothing. The only people who care about the contents of production memos are hardcore fans who love to dig into the minutiae. It doesn’t matter if the writer says “we didn’t really want X to happen, but when Y came up…” when it is irrelevant to the finished product.

          I do not consider it “prime,” that’s correct and, no, I did not say it isn’t canon because the Kelvin movies aren’t prime yet they are canon. The problem with TV Trek is, since Enterprise and now Discovery, trying to watch it chronologically is a complete mess. You cannot logically go from Discovery to TOS, ignoring the visual differences, and have it fit seamlessly.

          Alternatively, if one were to take the ideas of TOS and reimagine them into the Discovery mold, you can have something which isn’t like trying to force a Borg cube into a delta-shaped hole.

          It gets confusing on the subject of “canon” when you go into spurs like that, but it’s their own fault for being so adamant about doing a prequel and presenting it as almost more advanced than what would be future Trek. In the same way, it’s Into Darkness’s own fault for using a character of middle eastern descent and changing the ethnicity (while keeping the middle eastern name… makes sense) when they didn’t want to offend anyone of such descent because of the current events at the time.

          So… in an unfortunately long winded way, my view is that Discovery is canon in the same way that the Kelvin movies are canon, they are both real and relevant incarnations of Trek, but they are not the Trek canon which came before. They utilize similar aspects, but are clearly different.

      • mswood666

        Snap the problem is that Trek has often done visual updates to meet the criteria of when it aired. Motion Picture changed the look of ever thing except Spock’s ears. Every other race, uniform, set design, alien land scape, starship, literally every visual element outside of Spock’s ears changed dramatically in what in timeline should be less then 5 years. It’s utterly impossible for changes that dramatic to occur. Why did they occur, because times and the medium changed. And the Series look had to change with it.

        Look at how races changed be it from background Races for TOS, to the change in Motion Picture to the change in Voyage Home to the change in Final Frontier, to Undiscovered Country, and then to TNG. Races for the most part (outside of Trills, Andorians, Worf’s and Odo appliance) stayed the same from TNG through to Enterprise and that was only due to the shows having the same Makeup Supervisor. But all the movies features different makeup heads so races changed appearance, be it subtile to why more obvious. Heck even the design from the Cage (or Menagerie is fundamentally different enough to be very difficult to image a visual change between Pike and Kirk.

        Now certainly you can argue then the shows should have updated the appearance when used in episodes like Relics, Trials and Tribble-ations, Flashback, and In the Mirror Darkly. Certainly in Tribbles and in Flashback since they were going to be reusing existing film from the original airings it would have been extremely difficult to update and still keep the aspects from the film they were reusing. Now the use of footage from Undiscovered Country used in Flashback doesn’t seem that far removed from the look of Discovery, but that was due to it being designed and filmed much, much later then TOS and with the eye for being used for a film.

        Any shots from TOS to any of the films or tv shows is going to stick out as aesthetically different in a way that really isn’t possible compared to the production design of the rest of the 700 hours of Trek. It just isn’t going to work.

        You can certainly argue that the producers could have picked a different era (But even Enterprise’s look is vastly more advanced then TOS and that’s set nearly 100 years earlier). But keeping the show set before TNG allows the producers to not violate Roddenberry’s vision of what Trek should be (once he created TNG), and that’s having humanity having little to internal conflict with other’s in the Federation. TOS on the other hand was full of flawed conflicted characters.

        • TUP

          The real test will be when we see a Connie, especially the Enterprise and how they realize that on screen. Then you’ll get a feel for how much they are creating a “it all existed but this is how it really looked” feel.

        • Snap

          The difference with TOS to TMP is it was going forward, they weren’t saying it was supposed to be in the middle of the series or even before and, especially for a feature film, an update is expected.

          The thing with Discovery, it’s more than just a simply altering the visuals, the level of tech rivals that or, in some cases, even surpasses what we see in TNG and beyond. For a rudimentary comparison, it would be like having an NES (TOS) and then advancing to a PS2 (TNG) only to be taken pre-TOS and are presented with a PS4.

          I’m not sure if you have seen some of my previous comments on the matter, but I do not expect a slavish adherence to the TOS aesthetics, particularly when it comes to sets. It would be easy to take the bones of TOS sets and use Discovery production values to update them.

          My issue when it comes to Discovery is the need to redesign what doesn’t need to be redesigned, especially when elements of the redesign make no sense at all. I will certainly give them props for stuff they do which works well but I will also call them out when they drop the ball.

    • Captain Lorca, Section 31

      Explain the need to pointlessly change the Klingon look

      • TUP

        Every designer of every series or film has altered their look. Grow up.

  • Max Castle

    By far the best episode to date – pacing, directing, acting, all coming together finally. Still can’t stand Tilly, but at least the new alt-Tilly was more bearable.

  • Frank Pepito

    So a day later, I’m remembering how dark this episode depicted the Mirror Universe. It’s so dark, and so well thought out and presented, that I’m honestly not sure I can watch “Mirror, Mirror” and other MU episodes and enjoy them the way I used to. I’m afraid they’ll look cheesy! 🤔☹️ That’s a compliment to last night’s episode.

    • I always thought they looked goofy and cheesy

      • TUP

        I could handle a couple of goatee’s though. lol

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  • Rob Heyman

    As I really didn’t have time to flesh out a full review this week, I will say in a nutshell it was the best of what Discovery has offered so far. It was briskly paced, for better or for worse, with Frakes filing his first (and hopefully not last) directing assignment. It’s going to be so much fun watching Tilly slip into her alterna-role and how that’s going to inform her command training.

    • TUP

      It would make sense for this to show Tilly she has what it takes and push her along the command track.

      • and now she knows that really. If he alt self can do it, she can.

  • Kf

    Well the defiant has been hanging around the mu for almost a century so yeah, they’re going to add stuff to it to make it mean. The database says uss but it did come from the information in the mu data core. Lorca is not mirror. He’s just been through a lot of stuff. Good episode, dark and brooding as it should be. Tos mu was dark for its time, same with ds9.

    • I do not think they could “make it mean” it was already in both realities, a nasty warship. We know they replicated it, but none of those got changed. So I do not see them doing anything to it.