The final minutes of “Into the Forest I Go,” Star Trek: Discovery’s mid-season cliffhanger, ask a lot of questions: Where is the Discovery? Did Captain Lorca send them there — wherever ‘there’ is — and if so, why? Who, really, is Lt. Ash Tyler? And what exactly is going on with Lt. Stamets’ silvery, Gary Mitchell-esque eyes?

“Despite Yourself,” the midseason opener, wastes no time answering most of these questions. In a mesmerizing ready room scene (and surely, it’s due to director Jonathan Frakes’ skill and experience handling Star Trek that we can use ‘mesmerizing’ to describe a ready room scene) the crew discuss their predicament and quickly realize they’re not where they expected to be.

The emblem of the Terran Empire. (CBS)

Additionally, because of Stamets’ condition, they’re probably going to be stuck wherever it is they are for a while.

Lorca seems to be as surprised as everyone else at the hostility found this alternate quantum reality — first introduced in 1967’s “Mirror, Mirror,” and revisited during the days of Deep Space Nine and Enterprise — so while his course “correction” made during the last spore drive jump of “Into the Forest I Go” was intentional, it certainly doesn’t appear that this is where he intended the Discovery to arrive.

Once the crew of the Discovery figures out where they are — not just in the Mirror Universe, but in the midst of a large debris field — they quickly set about retrieving a Klingon/Vulcan computer core from a wrecked ship that’s drifting nearby.

From the computer core we learn that this universe’s Michael Burnham, erstwhile captain of the ISS Shenzhou, is presumed dead, and that Lorca doesn’t captain the ISS Discovery… that duty falls to the alternate version of Cadet Sylvia Tilly, much to everyone’s surprise.

Tilly (Mary Wiseman) and Burnham (Sonequa Martin-Green) in their Terran uniforms. (CBS)

Tilly’s reluctant transformation into her formidable Terran Empire counterpart — nicknamed, among other amusingly over-the-top monikers, “Captain Killy” — is an instant classic addition to a half-century of Mirror Universe moments. Watching our Tilly have to playact as the evil Captain Killy is great fun, and it’s a testment to Mary Wiseman’s skills to see her turn on a dime from awkward junior officer to the badass “Slayer of Sorna Prime.”

We also learn that the Terran Empire’s not-so-secret weapon is the Constitution-class USS Defiant, the same ship recovered by the Commander Jonathan Archer and the crew of the ISS Enterprise during the events of 2005’s “In a Mirror, Darkly,” which got zapped through time and space after disappearing in the Original Series’ “The Tholian Web.”

The Defiant’s place in the Terran fleet is only briefly mentioned, but it will almost certainly become a significant plot point as the season progresses — and her wireframe computer image is already the center of much discussion among Trek starship aficionados.

The USS Defiant, last seen in the hands of Empress Sato in 2155 — now seen in 2256. (CBS)

There’s been some fan speculation that given his dark, uncompromising stance, the Gabriel Lorca we’ve seen through these first ten episodes may actually originate in the Mirror Universe; while “Despite Yourself” neither confirms nor denies the idea, Lorca certainly seems to have the most contemplative response to the opposite nature of the Mirror Universe.

For the rest of the Discovery crew, learning that their counterparts are ruthless, bloodthirsty stalwarts in the Terran Empire is oddly reassuring. If one’s Mirror self is bad, and the Mirror Universe is the antithesis of the Prime Universe, then by definition one’s Prime self is good.

Lorca, on the other hand, seems genuinely disturbed when he learns of his Mirror counterpart’s fate, specifically that Mirror Lorca couldn’t save the crew of the ISS Buran any better than Prime Lorca could the USS Buran. (Additionally, Mirror Lorca is presumed to have killed Mirror Burnham and attempted a coup against the mysterious Terran emperor.)

“Well, there’s to me hoping I’d find a better version of ourselves over here,” he says to an unsure Burnham, and a quiet disappointment hangs over Lorca for the rest of the episode. Perhaps Lorca thought a parallel universe held the key to his ability to save the crew of the USS Buran and atone for his past mistakes. I look forward to seeing how Lorca comes to terms with himself, and I hope “our” Lorca has been the Prime Lorca all along.

His emotional characterization would be far less interesting if he’s given an external reason to be the way he is… and before Lorca can spend too long meditating on his nature, he finds himself in an agony booth aboard the ISS Shenzhou.

Lorca (Jason Isaacs) finds himself in a world of hurt, sentenced to the agony booth. (CBS)

Burnham surprises the crew by showing up with Lorca in tow as her prisoner, and wastes no time attempting to regain command. Unfortunately, two things stand between Burnham and the captain’s chair: Captain Danby Connor (returning guest actor Sam Vartholomeos), whose Federation counterpart died during the Battle of the Binary Stars, and a tense turbolift ride down to the Shenzhou‘s bridge.

The turbolift fight scene between Connor and Burnham stands out as a highlight in a season of Star Trek that has easily featured the franchise’s best hand-to-hand combat sequences. The concept, direction, choreography, and performances are all superb, utilizing the entire (albeit small) set in the fight, including the futuristic tech behind access panels to trigger a disruption to artificial gravity.

I have only one complaint about the sequence, and it’s the slow clap from the bridge crew as they congratulate Burnham on her victory and return to command — I guess I shouldn’t be surprised that such a corny gesture comes right on the heels of a thrilling and emotionally charged scene, and in a galaxy filled with salutes, chanting, and golden armor, I suppose it’s going to get a little silly at times.

The ISS Shenzhou’s Troy Januzzi (Romaine Waite) leads welcoming applause to the returning Burnham. (CBS)

Unlike previous Star Trek series, which could spend an episode or two in the high camp of the Mirror Universe and then move on, Discovery is going to need to find a way to blend the historical campiness of the Mirror Universe with the serious dramatic tone that it’s already established.

The more episodic a series, the easier it is to play with tone from one episode to another without seeming inconsistent, so it’ll be interesting to see how the highly serialized Discovery continues to blend the two styles.

I started “Despite Yourself” cautiously optimistic about the Mirror Universe setting, but by the end I found myself towards the optimism and less towards caution — hopefully by the end of next week’s “The Wolf Inside,” I’ll have abandoned my misgivings about the setting entirely.

Another point of intense speculation that “Despite Yourself” all but confirmed is Lt. Ash Tyler’s identity as the Klingon Voq. I say “all but” because of my own nagging disbelief that a member of one species can be surgically altered to become a medically indistinguishable member of another species.

Tyler (Shazad Latif) reacts to L’Rell’s (Mary Chieffo) words. (CBS)

It’s every Star Trek fan’s sworn duty to obsess over that one piece of scientific wizardry they just can’t believe, while happily accepting 99 other pieces of equally unbelievable pseudoscience. Why this is where I draw the line, I don’t know. A vast mycelial system underpinning all quantum realities and allowing instantaneous travel between dimensions? Sure, why not.

Brute-forcing a member of one species into another apparently using nothing but mundane surgical techniques? No.

While the 1967 Trek episode “The Trouble with Tribbles” featured a Klingon agent transformed into a “human” named Arne Darvin, the vastly-different-from-human new look of Klingons in Discovery makes it much less compatible, Trek history aside. But putting my personal incredulousness aside, it’s clear the writers are telling us that one way or another the human Tyler was once the Klingon Voq. Got it.

Lt. Tyler is understandably shaken after an intense meeting with L’Rell in the brig during which she attempts to awake Voq’s dormant self within him — reciting T’Kuvma’s prayer from the opening episodes, and even shouting at him, “You have another name!”

Eventually, he takes his concerns to Dr. Culber. Culber reviews Tyler’s medical history and comes to the conclusion that Tyler is not himself, at which point Tyler promptly kills Culber by snapping his neck.

Dr. Culber (Wilson Cruz) is skeptical of Tyler’s concerns… for now. (CBS)

The episode spends just a few seconds lingering on this shocking event before moving on, and what little reflection the episode does show is framed from Tyler’s perspective, not Culber’s. Dr. Culber, along with Lt. Stamets, is one half of Star Trek’s first canon openly gay couple; I will let other, more qualified people discuss the representational significance of Culber’s untimely death, but I will at the very least say that this is a big deal.

Wilson Cruz, who plays the late (for now?) Dr. Culber, hinted strongly that we hadn’t seen the last of him on Discovery, and showrunners Aaron Harberts and Gretchen Berg also confirmed future appearances in statements made on both After Trek and pre-episode interviews which hit the web immediately following the US broadcast of this episode.

While I understand why they’d want to speak out, I would argue that the better a story is told, the less the need for audience reassurance when something unexpected happens. Culber’s death felt like a redshirt’s death: there to serve the story of the character who kills, rather than the story of the killed. Perhaps like Tasha Yar in The Next Generation’s “Yesterday’s Enterprise,” Culber will be given a chance to make up for the seemingly senseless death he was given.

There’s another issue with needing to assure the audience that everything will be okay in the end, and it’s that you run the risk of seeming dismissive toward your audience; that a hugely dramatic moment comes in the middle of a character’s journey — instead of its end — doesn’t diminish the impact that moment can have on the viewer.

Lorca prepares to leave the safety of the USS — er, ISS — Discovery. (CBS)

I defy anyone to watch Spock’s death scene in The Wrath of Khan and, because they know he’ll come back in The Search for Spock, to feel nothing. You wouldn’t dismiss a first-time viewer’s reaction to Spock’s death with a “Just you wait…,” you’d let them mourn — and probably be mourning yourself, even if you’ve watched the scene a dozen times and know the outcome.

Spock’s death and subsequent funeral don’t lose their potency just because we know he’ll live again. The power of storytelling doesn’t come from the final outcome, it comes from everything a character – and a viewer – endures to get there.

So far this season, we’ve learned a lot about who these characters are; now that we’re through the looking glass and in the Mirror Universe, we’re going to learn even more by finding out who they aren’t. Regardless of the isolated misgivings I have about “Despite Yourself,” it’s an exciting, fast-paced episode that sets up a compelling arc.

I can’t wait to find out what the rest of the season has in store.

Novel #1:
"Desperate Hours"


Novel #2:
"Drastic Measures"


Novel #3:
"Fear Itself"


  • Mike

    I thought the bridge crew applauding was the perfect way to end that sequence and drive home the stakes. In the prime universe, two Starfleet officers fighting to the death would be a shocking event. In the mirror universe, it’s Tuesday.

    But I agree about the surgical-species-change. They could have found a better way.

    • The Surgical stuff does make some sense. We know from TOs they do this, and this could be the case in which they can now detect the changes.

      • SpaceCadet

        But DSC takes places before TOS so why should the DSC starfleet officers be able to detect these changes?

        Anyways, I find it too hard to believe that the warrior-oriented Klingons of the 23rd century retroactively have these amazing medical abilities that fool everybody until Culber decides to look a wee bit closer. But whatever, all for the sake of the story I guess!

        • They didn’t detect them until they took a second look and looked for “anything odd , no matter how small” The beds and gear did not find it. Only once he started going though it with a fine tooth comb did he find anything and he was not sure what. In TOS the gear found it at once.

          People keep forgetting Klingons are not dumb, they have been in space longer than the Vulcans.

          • TUP

            Agreed. The idea that Ash’s change is undetectable is not true since it was detected by Culber.

            We have brain transference in TOS. We have transporters. We have all sorts of weird things. But surgical alterations is the end of the road for some people?

          • Some folks,seem to think if TOS could not dobit in 1966, it cant be dine in trek. Hell they lack an understanding of DNA in 1966

          • kadajawi

            Er? It should look a bit like those 60s designs, being part of the universe at that time. The effects can be up to date, of course. And the tech that we know exists at that time can be visible, and some minor upgrades. Not jump lightyears ahead.

            The changes to Voq’ are far more than cosmetic. Underneath the skin are big differences, that would be easily visible with a scan.

            We know that the Klingons experimented with DNA, and that that brought vast changes with it. It completely altered the race. However, those things applied to new born only IIRC. Also, if they have perfected it to create Klingons into Humans, why the surgery?

            Maybe we’ll get an explanation that makes sense, I hope so, but until then I’m skeptical.

          • No, it should not look 1960s, DSC in set in 2250s not tbe 1960s. The connie in a 2040s design, not a 1960 one.

          • Neill Stringer

            Not seen the episode so I am probably quoting the obvious. But how can Klingon elements not be detected until a closer scan is done, their anatomy is totally different with back up organs

          • He lacked all that. Which is why they didn’t notice. He either has implanted human organs or modified klingon ones.

        • pittrek

          “But DSC takes places before TOS so why should the DSC starfleet officers be able to detect these changes?”

          For the same reason why they have now Tribbles on the show, even though 10 years later Uhura will have no clue what they are – the producers don’t care about continuity

          • Why would everyone know about everything? We have people on earth, with the internet that do not know what many animals are.

          • RMS_Titanic

            How would Cyrano Jones have know to call a tribble a tribble? It is just such an outlandish sounding name that I doubt a human in-universe would have named it.

          • The whole idea that no one knew of them is silly.

          • mswood666

            No it isn’t. You could take pretty much any subsection of the population of roughly the size of Enterprise and K7 and there would hundreds upon hundreds (if not thousands) of species of life that wouldn’t be successfully identified on sight.

          • I mean the whole idea that no human man. I get thst no one on that ship or station might, what I am saying is just because somone in the 22nd and 23rd knew of them, that does not chsnge that episode.

          • mswood666

            No but I would assume he didn’t just find on laying around pick it up and call it tribble. I would naturally assume that he got it in trade (or stole) from someone. Its quite possible that it would have exchanged hands many times before we first see it on K7. Notice in Trouble with Tribbles, we never hear a Klingon mention them by the name Tribble. So we have literally no knowledge on the origin of its name.

          • A_Warrior_of_Marley

            And yet Dr. Phlox knew what it was by name and reveals that the species is already outlawed on a number of worlds:

            (Phlox is going around putting various foodstuffs into various cages and containers)
            HOSHI: Feeding time?
            PHLOX: When isn’t it?
            (He takes a bundle of fluff out of a box.)
            HOSHI: What is that?
            PHLOX: It won’t bite. It’s called a tribble.
            (She takes it.)
            PHLOX: It was extremely difficult to acquire. They’re outlawed on most worlds.
            HOSHI: Why? Is it dangerous?
            PHLOX: Oh, far from it. All it’s capable of doing, really, is eating and breeding. The problem is they breed quite prodigiously.
            (Phlox takes it from her and drops it into another cage, where, amid much screeching, trembling of foliage and rattling of the bars, we assume it gets eaten.)
            PHLOX: The only thing that keeps their population in check is the abundance of reptiles on their homeworld. Are you feeling all right, Ensign?
            HOSHI: I just came by to give you this transmission. It’s from the Denobulan Science Academy. Marked urgent.
            PHLOX: Thank you.

            It seems to be a mixed bag of who knows what and you’d think that even if the characters themselves didn’t know, they’d be able to look it up in a database.

          • Simon

            Give me a break. There’s plenty of species on Earth you or I don’t know about – but they exist. In a universe with trillions of potential species the fact Uhura or others on the ENTERPRISE crew didn’t know doesn’t seem far fetched at all – and just a reason for the nitpickers to hate on this show for no real reason.

          • Pretty much.

          • Nowhereman10

            Let’s remember that Star Trek: Enterprise over ten years ago showed Dr. Phlox feeding a tribble to another animal in his menagerie on the NX-01 in the 22nd century.

          • TUP

            When was it established that Uhura knew of every species in the Universe?

          • Snap

            Doctor McCoy didn’t know anything about Tribbles either and wanted to study one. Given his curiosity as well as his position as a physician responsible for keeping his crew safe from potential diseases which they may encounter, whether they are humanoid or not, it is reasonable that he would have studied up on any information recorded about Tribbles.

            The idea that such information would not be available hinges upon the popular argument that the information was classified but what possible reason could there be fore classifying information on Tribbles? In fact, it is somewhat implied on Discovery that the existence of Tribbles is fairly common knowledge, given how nobody bats an eye at the Tribble in Lorca’s office. Burnham didn’t show even the slightest bit of curiosity when she first met Lorca after arriving on the ship.

            When it comes to the Tyler situation, was the Tribble always conveniently “not there” whenever Tyler would meet with Lorca? We never saw such meetings but Lorca made Tyler his chief of security so you know they have had regular meetings. The Tyler story is just so poorly constructed that it insults the intelligence of the viewer.

          • TUP

            He was a medical doctor. I’m not sure my doctor would know about all manner of life forms.

          • Snap

            That doesn’t make much sense, that’s like saying medical doctors shouldn’t be familiar with botany or chemistry, considering how important they are to medicine. I highly doubt Starfleet would have dedicated veterinarians on board their ships in the event that the crew encounters animal life potentially carrying diseases which could endanger the crew.

            If McCoy was that limited, he wouldn’t have been able to help the injured Horta and I imagine if he were familiar with the Mugato, it would have saved him and Kirk some grief. Even in the Kelvin films, McCoy happens to have a (albeit dead) Tribble.

            Granted, Star Trek storytelling has often required characters to be incompetent, such as McCoy in “The Undiscovered Country” not being familiar with Klingon anatomy when he tries to save Gorkon.

          • mswood666

            Snap. Your point doesn’t make any sense. McCoy isn’t all knowing, none of the characters are. They are often shown in situations that show them not having knowledge of a subject even within their own field of study. You use the Horta as an example, an example where McCoy guessed, and was shown to be surprised that it actually worked. our expecting the character to have staggering sum of knowledge that isn’t even it his field. That just isn’t reasonable.

            We have seen them have to use the library computers to get information, to use locals to get information and to get Federation knowledge that isn’t accessible from the ships memory banks. Why would this creature not be able to fall into one of those categories?

          • Snap

            Of course McCoy isn’t “all knowing” but I think you, along with the others, are approaching doctors from a contemporary perspective. Do people really think that medical issues the crew will face will be solely due to humanoid interaction.

            This isn’t even a battle I care to continue, yet everybody seems to want to harp on every little thing. Star Trek characters are subject to gumbification at the whim of the writers, so you’ll find stuff to support almost any argument.

            As I have said, as far as I’m concerned Discovery is another splinter in the Trek multiverse, so such contradictions aren’t really important. Before anybody inevitably tries to tell me I’m “wrong” I don’t need anybody’s permission of validation to enjoy Trek how I see fit. It’s no different than those people who cherry pick which parts of “canon” to accept as canon based on whether or not they like it and nobody jumps down their throats.

          • A_Warrior_of_Marley

            Actually, McCoy wasn’t familiar at all with the Horta and he took a while to figure out something that might work in saving her:

            (McCoy runs in)
            MCCOY: What in the name of? What is Spock doing?
            KIRK: It’s wounded. Badly. You’ve got to help it.
            MCCOY: Help that?
            KIRK: Go take a look.
            (McCoy kneels by the wound and gets out his tricorder.)
            SPOCK: The end of life. Murderers.
            MCCOY: You can’t be serious. That thing is virtually made out of stone!
            KIRK: Help it. Treat it.
            MCCOY: I’m a doctor, not a bricklayer.
            KIRK: You’re a healer. There’s a patient. That’s an order. Mister Spock. Tell it we’re trying to help. The mechanism.

            That’s why later on after McCoy does figure something out, he exclaims:

            ” It won’t die. By golly, Jim, I’m beginning to think I can cure a rainy day.”

            It’s kinda apparent that McCoy took a gamble that the mostly silicone theromoconcrete would act as a patch for a mostly rock lifeform and fortunately it did.

          • Snap

            I didn’t say he was familiar with the Horta when they encountered it, but he was able to adapt and heal the Horta’s injuries. I am also well aware of the scene in question.

          • TG1701

            Your point is making no sense man. First of all McCoy is a medical doctor for the Enterprise. He’s there to basically take care of the crew first and foremost which was mostly human minus Spock, who was half human. Second of all doctors aren’t suppose to understand the anatomy and biology of every species out there and hence why there are different doctors for different species. You don’t take a snake or a bird to a regular doctor you take them to a veterinarian and even then there are many different types of those doctors.

            And lastly their entire mandate is to literally SEEK OUT NEW LIFE so how would McCoy be prepared for the hundreds if not thousands of new life forms out there he’s never even encountered before to operate on? That would include tribbles

          • mswood666

            Because of course Uhura would be able to recognize any and all forms of life that exists within range of the Federation and any exploration done during that time by allies, civilians, and hostile powers of that era. There are thousands of life forms on Earth, just one planet that the vast majority of the planet wouldn’t have any idea that exist. Now multiple that by all the worlds the Federation or humans have any knowledge of. Do you see the utterly ludicrous idea that Uhura (and heck even the entire crew of the Enterprise and K-7) would be able to identify on sight any and all forms of life? Please, please never use that as a reason to judge canon.

        • Snap

          It is reasonable that the Discovery era would not know the vitals of a Klingon, nor their anatomical structure but it is NOT reasonable that they would not be able to detect when something is wrong with what is normal human biology. There ar things which cannot be altered by mere surgical alteration, blood chemistry/pressure, heart rate, body temperature, etc. and we have seen that Tyler’s vitals have been monitored by the equipment in sickbay, including what looked to be an anatomical scan.

          Whether Culber or the CMO or other medical personnel, they should notice that something isn’t right with what the scans are telling them and investigating further. One could make the argument that the Klingons used an implant of sorts to simulate the vital signs of a human but, again, Tyler was subject to a full body scan as evidenced by the on screen displays and even if they didn’t detect the scarring or “bone crushing” they would have been able to detect a foreign object within his body.

          It implies that not only are Starfleet medical systems woefully inadequate but that the doctors are all quacks. It’s poor writing on the part of the Discovery team.

        • Victorinox

          The House of Mo’Kai is not your typical Klingon. They are “watchers,” “deceivers,” and “weavers of lies” – employing tactics of espionage and subterfuge that other Great Houses considered dishonorable compared to a frontal assault.

          So while other Houses focus on military strength, these guys could’ve been developing medical advances useful for they sneaky spy ways.

          This is absolutely consistent with canon and the premise of the show.

    • Nowhereman10

      Speaking of the little touches, I loved the scene of the crew repainting the registry number so that they can pass off their Discovery for its Mirror counterpart. A great bit that back in the TOS days would have been nigh-impossible due to the constraints of budget and the relatively primitive state of special effects back then. Even by TNG and DS9 this would have been a very difficult and expensive scene to make.

  • I loved this one, hands down it is my fav so far.

    • AmiRami

      me too

  • Locutus

    Don’t read this comment if you don’t like hearing speculation about the significance of the Defiant. Not spoilers obviously just a theory…

    The interesting thing about the Defiant is that it was brought 113 years from the future into the past using a rift in space that connected the Prime Universe to the Mirror Universe. If they reverse engineer what happened to the Defiant from the Mirror Universe than a rift would open in the Prime Universe in 2369, right in the middle of the TNG era. Could we be headed into the future by season’s end? With Stamets disabled and the Discovery likely to faceoff against Terran warships, a desperate escape into the future of the Prime Universe could be enticing.

    • Shadowknight1

      Another interesting note regarding the Defiant’s wireframe schematic. No, it doesn’t look like the Defiant from In A Mirror Darkly. But is the image from the Discovery’s Federation database, which would be displaying an older configuration of the Constitution-class that could be refitted later? Or is the image from the Terran Empire database, which would be displaying a Constitution-class that has undergone 100 years of refits?

      • Eric

        I’m pretty sure if we see the Defiant, that the Constitution Class ship will have at least a minor update so that it fits in this DSC aesthetic. This show cannot just do homages to TOS like done in DS9 and ENT. Recreating the TOS Constitution Class ship without an update (and not the same as the Kelvin Timeline) just wouldn’t work given the current and general aesthetic.

        • Eric

          And I hope they don’t explain it as an in-universe upgrade by the Terrans. They’ve done a visual upgrade to the universe and they just need to own that!

          Though, I DO hope they address the human/Klingon augment virus problem…. not the elaborate costumes and broader changes. Just the virus. In my ideal version, Tyler/Voq was given the virus to make him look human in general and then all of the horrifying surgeries were performed to make him look exactly like the original Ash Tyler who died at the Battle at the Binary Stars. Perhaps by the end of the season the augment virus is reintroduced and some of the Klingons catch it.

          … I also want Voq to be the Albino in DS9… but that’s another story!!

      • Why would they update it? They inly have had the ablity to build them fir like 20 years tops. The Enterprise from the TOS MU had zero changes

        • Eric

          What? I don’t understand your statement at all.

          • Mangled a bit. I am on the phone. The Mirrior Universe keeps pace with prime. This is likely because of the Defiants mainframe.

            In TOS, the 20 year old Connie was just like the prime 20 year old connie. They did not change it.

            In the MU the defiant is the template. Why change it and not its copies?

          • Eric

            We have yet to see a full fledged Constitution Class starship on Star Trek Discovery. The Defiant will disappear from the prime universe while Kirk is captain of the Enterprise 1701. Everything in DSC has been visually updated even though its ten years before Kirk and we know that Pike is now captain of the Enterprise as we see it in “The Cage.” in DS9 and ENT (and on the holodeck in TNG) we see the original design, exteriorly and/or interiorly. I am saying, given the nature of DSC as a prime universe show with a visual update, it would not make sense to leave the Enterprise as it was. It would look jarring and old-fashioned. Those other Enterprise cameos were homages and this can’t be an homage because the USS Discovery and the 1701 are contemporaries.

            So since they have already shown us a modified skeletal image of the Defiant in this episode, I hope they tastefully update any Constitution Class starship that appears so it looks like it fits in this DSC visual reboot.

          • Oh, in that we argee. It wil be updated to match the ships we have seen.

          • Simon

            Because the folks who made TOS could not AFFORD to change it? Heck, they never showed another Federation starship that wasn’t re-used footage of the Enterprise.

          • This is the RL reason. However, notice none of the ships we saw in DSC had been changed either. None upgraded, none altered. They are just like the Prime versions, even the NX was just liked the prime version.

            Also the Crew of the discovery did not blink an eye at the look of the ship. They knew what is was at a glance.

          • Locutus

            Obviously, when they made “Mirror, Mirror,” the writers weren’t thinking about the USS Defiant because “In a Mirror, Darkly” hadn’t been written yet and couldn’t afford to change the model that much. Nonetheless, it is fun to speculate why the ISS Enterprise looked more retro than the USS Defiant. There are two possible answers:

            (1) In the Mirror timeline that Kirk visits in “Mirror, Mirror,” the events in “In a Mirror, Darkly” had not occurred; or

            (2) The events in “In a Mirror, Darkly” had occurred, but Empress Sato kept the advanced Defiant for herself. Perhaps she allowed other Constitution Class ships to be built, but she had them built according to slightly outdated (“Cage”-era) specs. That would allow her to keep her advantage in having the most advanced ship in the fleet.

          • 3: The Enterprise had simply not undergone the post 2255 refit. You have to recall, Kirks ship was 20 years old and had been refit before.

          • Locutus

            Assuming the events in “In a Mirror, Darkly” had occurred, they had The Defiant in the Mirror universe long before ISS Enterprise was built. Ordinarily, you would think the ISS Enterprise’s original design would have incorporated The Defiant’s refits.

          • Off hand, I saw we ignore the look as it was clear reused footage or a cheap older model because the Inside was post refit.

          • Locutus

            So say we all!

          • reddkryten

            The defiant has spent years in battles, obviously if would have scars and need repairs/upgrades, resulting in the new appearence.

            I don’t know where the idea that the mirror universe doesn’t innovate comes from? Zefram Cochrane was able to innovate.

            Also, another possible senario, the emperor reversed engineered the defiant and started to build up a fleet of them. Howeved she was worred they would turn against her, so she upgraded the defiant so it would always be more powerful (and possibly intentionally weakened the copied ships).

          • They don’t really though. They are not a group of many aligned worlds all working together. I prime they worked to make the NX, no one helped them.In the MU they stole the tech they needed and did not make their own really.

            The issue is they could not build the defiant. They need to get to a tech level of the 2220’s to build her. And likely No one was allowed to touch it for some time, they would not simply allow their ace to be ripped apart. However, the files on board would explain how they kept pace with prime, why even the ships are the same.

            They simply lacked the ability to upgrade it until they could build it and by that point she is a 120 or so years old.

          • RMS_Titanic

            That was the one of the themes about the Mirror Universe I took note when I first watched that two-parter in 2005. With some notable exceptions, almost everything used by the Terran Empire in the 2150s was not their technology, but stolen from other groups, most notably the conquered Vulcans. This is why the NX-class in the MU has tractor beams and more advanced weapons than Prime Universe counterparts. Only after the Federation is formed in the Prime that the technology advantage switch to the Prime because, as you note, they now have all these worlds working in cooperation and sharing knowledge. I doubt that without the predestination paradox of the time-travelling Defiant would the Terran Empire have been able to make Constitution-class or other comparable ships on their own.

          • Yeah, they are scavengers. They conquer and take, but do not seem to really innovate. I think the Defiant allowed them to keep pace because they already had the plans.

          • reddkryten

            I totally understand your point, but I’d still quibble on the conclusion.

            Obviously the mirror universe has a totally different set of priorities, people who would be building the next generation of warp drives, are busy being soldiers. Stabbed in the back by someone looking for a promotion, or they are worried about being executed for failure, so instead of proposing a radical solution which will take time and testing they end up playing it safe.

            In that sort of chaotic environment, it becomes harder to develop things and is much easier to just steal.

            However that is very different from “they cannot innovate”. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned that the mirror counterparts could not upgrade the Defiant. I believe they could.

            In the prime universe Scotty was able to rig a transporter to keep him in suspended animation for seventy years. I’m sure mirror Scotty could achieve this, although he would do it for totally different reasons (and there is no way he would have tried to save Ensin Franklin).

            They are less inclined to innovate, but can do it.

          • I did not say “Can not” I said they “do not” innovate. In ENT we saw they used stolen weapons and gear in a homemade shipframe. But with all the Federation info just sitting there, they have no need to innovate.

          • JP

            The writers said it was modified by Terrans to explain the wireframe.

            Make of that what you like.

            https://twitter.com/karterhol/status/952202679618453504

          • Funny how the DIS crew did not notice eh?

        • Thomas McAulay

          In TOS-R the MU Connie was like the Connie from the Cage. Larger deflector and grills on the back of the nacelles instead of cones.

          • So less advanced as it had not been refit yet. Honestly that was likeily reused footage or a cheap model as the insides were post cage.

      • Thomas McAulay

        But is the image from the Discovery’s Federation database, which would be displaying an older configuration of the Constitution-class that could be refitted later?

        That is was I think. If the Defiant had been around for 100 years the Empire would have had far more advanced tech by the time Kirk and co arrived through reverse engineering and modifications. But the Enterprise shown in Mirror Mirror (TOS-R) is less advanced than it’s prime universe counterpart.

        • Not really. The Empire foes not innovate, it takes. With the defiant database that had a 100 uears of trek to remake and they did it more or less at the sane pace. Notice the ships are the same in both realities.

        • AmiRami

          “If the Defiant had been around for 100 years the Empire would have had far more advanced tech by the time Kirk and co arrived through reverse engineering and modifications.”

          True, assuming they decided to reverse engineer it. I think the implication of In A Mirror Darkly was that they never did. Rather than use the ship for science and advancement, Empress Sato used it as a weapon to sieze control of the terran empire. So it may have never been reversed engineered.

          • TUP

            Yeah my answer to that is, why would Sato allow anyone to create advanced tech from the Defiant? As long as she had the Defiant and everyone else had what they had, she had the advantage.

            She obviously knew that eventually, the normal course of time would catch up…but its possible she either a) didnt care because she’s be dead or her people have such a stranglehold on power or b) she was creating new tech very slowly over time and we just havent seen any yet.

          • AmiRami

            yep thats exactly the way I think about it.

    • Eric

      Could be!!! One of Fuller’s original ideas would be to spend each season in a different time period. CBS didn’t want to start over every season with new cast/crew and new sets… Could be the way they do it.

      • TUP

        Yeah that might be how Fuller intended to do it but I dont think its the case here.

    • AmiRami

      I wouldn’t object to that at all but TBH I’m not sure I see that happening

    • Roger Birks

      You propose a very exciting possibility!

      Don’t see it happening, sadly, myself

      • Locutus

        It’s a long-shot, but I didn’t see them killing Captain Georgiou or T’Kuvma either. They are taking some risks, and a leap to the TNG-era with all the temporal implications that accompany that would be risky storytelling.

  • SpaceCadet

    “Crossover” on DS9 was an excellent example of doing a MU story without going campy, well, arguably with the exception of the delightfully sexy and slinky Intendant Kira!

    • Eric

      There has always been at least a little bit of camp in all the MU episodes since the original “Mirror, Mirror,” even if just a little. Tilly is our comic relief so far, and I think its really well done, without distracting from the gravity of the show. I’m well pleased, thus far.

      • TUP

        Tilly is great and the actress is fantastic. Great comedic timing. She is the most fully fleshed our character so far with defined personality traits (the nervousness, the swearing etc)

        • AmiRami

          She’s a total sweetheart too. A very realistic character IMO.

  • pittrek

    Well this was the second time in this show that I am actually interested what will happen next (the first time was the previous episode). I’m glad to say that the writing is getting slightly better with each episode. Who knows, maybe they will be remembered as the next TNG – the show which started badly but drastically improved with time

    • TG1701

      Yeah I agree the last few episodes have been decent. I am bored as hell with the Klingon stuff and don’t care about them and don’t like most of the new characters but the last two episodes have really made me more interested. I’m glad they are getting away from the Klingon war stuff at least as the MU feels a lot more fun and interesting. Hopefully Discovery will feel more like a Star Trek show in time and this is a decent way to go at least.

      • pittrek

        Right now my favorite character is “Tyler”. I would never expect that when they introduced him to us

    • TUP

      Yeah I think we all expected it to take some time to find their groove, especially in a heavily serialized show where the early scripts are writing characters as they appear in the writers’ head with no input from the performers.

      Once you lay down some scenes and get the individualized performances, the voices of the characters really come out, momentum becomes a thing and everyone finds their groove.

      A lot of shows dont hit the ground running. Maybe the West Wing. lol

  • Thomas McAulay

    I’m still not convinced this wire diagram of Defiant is the 100 year old Defiant shown in ENT. I think it’s a diagram of the Defiant as she was before TOS in 2256. There is no established canon for the appearance of the constitution class vessels prior to TOS other than the Cage. It seems plausible to me that the constitution class which was around from 2245 had originally been fitted out with more weaponry, especially considering the Klingon war. After the war the Defiant might have been refitted for exploration as we saw her in “The Tholian web” and ‘In a mirror…” It would not make sense that the Enterprise in “Mirror Mirror” was a less advanced constitution class than it’s mirror counterpart if the Defiant had been present in the Empire already for 100 years. Of course, considering the changes made to the Klingon vessels they might just have done a visual reboot!

    • Yeah, its just gonna be a visual update. Storywise altering it makes zero sense and the crew thought it looked normal.

      • TUP

        hats possible. Im not convinced yet. I dont think the relatively minor changes would warrant the crew to point it out in the context of the scene.

        Its possible it was refit in the MU. Or it looked that way in Discovery’s time but was refit after the war to look as we know it.

        Or thats the way it looks and the Defiant in Enterprise looks that way too, from Discovery’s perspective.

      • Victorinox

        I’m ok with an update too. It is not a big deal.

    • AmiRami

      But regardless, we know from In a Mirror Darkly that the USS Defiant looked exactly like the Enterprise 1701. So IMO this wire diagram should reflect that.

  • Renan Cariolando Feitosa
    • TUP

      No. I like Gabe Koener’s (sorry if I misspelled).

    • Victorinox

      Not a fan of the boxy nacelles. To be honest I’d be ok with TOS’ original design but with a lot more detail around the surfaces. Just that update will make it fit nicely with DSC style visuals. The smooth surface of the original ship has always bothered me. It just looks fake.

  • Ian Fleming

    “While I understand why they’d want to speak out, I would argue that the better a story is told, the less the need for audience reassurance when something unexpected happens.” That is not why they were reassuring people. Just do a search for “Bury Your Gays” and you will see exactly why they had to reassure people that they have plans.

  • Kirksdeadjim

    Loved this episode.This is definetly the best first season of any Trek show since TOS.

    • Dirk Baab

      Correct, and this is the best Star Trek Series ever. Let alone the 2 1st Episodes, which made an entire movie 🙂 That alone was better than all of J.J. s Star Trek Movies, and i loved those.

    • BCSWowbagger

      Other than DS9 and VOY, I agree.

  • AmiRami

    Welp, now we know what a constitution class starship looks like on this show. TBH I can’t say I am a fan of the redesign.

    • TUP

      We dont know if thats what Connie’s look like in the Prime Universe or if that is an image of the MU Defiant after being refit in the MU.

      • AmiRami

        But how would the Discovery have an image of the alt universe Defiant retrofit if they just got there? Shouldn’t the image be coming from their prime universe database?

        • TUP

          I only watched it once so Im not entirely sure but I thought the image came from the data core they took from the wrecked vessel? It was the same scene, no? Of course, they could easily movie between their own data banks and the captured data core. But I took it as being from the MU.

          I know that raises the question of why it would keep the same designation (USS, Constitution Class etc) but that could be a quirk of the Empress that she “honored” the ship by keeping its name and designation…who knows.

          Or the image, which was obviously not a very good one, was retrieved from the damaged recovered datacore and the text on screen was the Prime computer’s info about it.

          • AmiRami

            huh ok. I only watched once too and I might have had a drink or 2 in me lol so I will rewatch tonight 😀

          • TUP

            I dont think its clear and could go either way. We’ll either find out or we wont.

            I think there is only 2 reasons to have that weird wire frame image. 1) because we’ll never see it and they didnt want to commit to a design they might use later 2) they are preserving the surprise of the full reveal

          • AmiRami

            I hope its #2.

          • kadajawi

            I think it’s 2). They wanted to tease us. Which I am absolutely fine with. Now we’ve had a “woah” moment, and later we get to have that once more when we see the full ship. Also, now people speculate. If they made any changes to the ship, people will be more willing to accept that. We know that they stick close to the original, but that there are indeed changes.

  • Havenbull

    Does anyone know where I can find an animated GIF of the neck breaking? It was fantastic!

  • Robert

    It would have been better to jump into an “alternate universe” of miniskirts and TOS, with “normal” looking Klingons, revealing the previous episodes to be an alternate (to us) reality. They could have warped around in 1960’s nostalgia tech for a few episodes, obeyed Star Trek Canon, then jumped back and been free of all Canon constraints. Hell, the whole show should be like Voyager, trying to get back home.

    • Man, they already Obey canon. Looking like the 1960’s is not “canon” that is simply visuals of a TV show.

      • RMS_Titanic

        They could still even do the mini-skirts as a joke near the end of this series in another six years as even as late as “Where No Man Has Gone Before” showed us that women wore the unisex pants and shirts right up until then and so even in the 2256 time period, “The Cage” events from just two years prior showed women crew members would not be wearing mini-skirts.So this who 2250s time period and into the early 2260s should be unisex uniforms.

        • I want to see the stupid of those sexist miniskirts die.

          • feenix219

            at the time, the women loved wearing them as a sign of their independence and freedom to wear them…. smh.

          • They are silly, no woman I know would want to be forced to ware those. Could you image crawling or climbing ladders in those? Its a silly and impractical uniform forced onto a single gender, making it sexist man.

          • feenix219

            …. and who is forcing anyone? In-universe, female crewmen in TOS were depicted wearing both pants and skirts – why are you shaming them for their characters choices? In real life, the actresses have been quoted stating that they felt empowered wearing them. Where is your beef? Context is everything.

          • Once more dude, we both know they are forced. Its a stupid uniform only females had to wear. Its stupid.

    • Mo

      No. This series isn’t about camp. If you want nostalgia, watch Continues.

  • Armsman

    “Another point of intense speculation that “Despite Yourself” all but confirmed is Lt. Ash Tyler’s identity as the Klingon Voq. I say “all but” because of my own nagging disbelief that a member of one species can be surgically altered to become a medically indistinguishable member of another species.”

    But remember he WASN’T medically indistinguishable per se – Culbers stated they found a lot of bone damage and organ scarring, but the computer attributed it to his story of 7 months of torture. It wasn’t until; he did a more in depth scan and other tests that he discovered Ash wasn’t what he appeared. I thought it worked okay overall story wise. You couldn’t have a functioning Intelligence network if you didn’t come up with ways to mask or fool 23rd century tech convincingly in some way, and ALL Star Nations in Star Trek have their spies in place (or o many a Star Trek episode has said over the years.) 🙂

    • They did this same trick in TOS. Except by 10 years later the Gear had been set to detect such things.

  • startrekker1701

    Plot wise this is getting good, but not sure if a big Mirror Universe plot is a bit too much of a fanboy indulgence. OK for a one-off episode, maybe not a story arc.

    Disappointed about Culber in this episode – gratuitous Game of Thrones-like longevity just for the sake of it.

    No CMO would have told someone their suspicions without having gone to the captain first and securing said ‘patient’.

    Burnham was no where remotely affected enough by having to kill a ‘crew mate’ especially a ‘ghost’ having already been responsible for his death once. She should have been broken by that and the mission placed in jeapoardy because of it – not jumping into bed.

    Tyler can’t be Voq – it would be science we know not to be possible pre-TNG.

    And biggest fan-boy niggle? That Constitution Class ship frame they had on screen should have either kept the TOS design or gone Abrams.

    • RMS_Titanic

      It pretty much is the TOS design, with the only notable changes being the saucer notches and the bent-angle nacelle pylons.

    • iMike

      Culbers was not the CMO.

    • Victorinox

      Culber is not the CMO, and when he found something weird, he informed the correct person: The Chief Security Officer (Tyler), who in Culber’s eyes is a trusted human officer that has proven himself as a valuable crewmember.

      We as viewers obviously have more information and context, know about Voq, and LRell, and can connect dots that Culber can’t.

      Burnham shouldn’t be upset for killing Connor, because that’s not Connor.

      The Defiant has been around in the MU for 100 yrs. We don’t know what the Empire has done to it. It could be different because of a refit or something like that.

      • She was pretty upset in the lift. But pushed it down and acted like it was no big deal once the doors opened.

  • Vger64

    From the beginning I have supported this show and the newest episode totally blew me away!! I am so Freaking loving Discovery!!!! Great job Everyone!

  • usscantabrian

    I thought that Discovery finally “brought it” in this episode. Pretty well done.

    I am not thrilled about the “Bury Your Gays” thing though with Culber’s death.

    I still think that Ash Tyler was altered to be Voq then altered back to the Ash Tyler again. It would explain a lot about how the preliminary scans didn’t catch things. Think about it. The Klingons don’t have the hottest medical technology, from what has come before. Could have L’Rell caught on somehow that Tyler was a Federation agent and altered Tyler to work to her advantage? She is from a House engaged in espionage after all… (I might be wrong, but this is kinda my line of thinking. A box within a box kinda thing.)

  • kadajawi

    Lots of things happening in the episode, many things mentioned in the review.

    First of all, the slow clap. Works for me. No issues there. These people are like that, it matches their style.

    I did have issues with a DSC-Klingon being surgically altered into Taylor. They are very, VERY different. All the extra organs etc.? It doesn’t make sense to take this type of Klingon and turn him into a spy when you could easily take a TOS-era Klingon with the augment virus still fully intact. They are still a bit different, but closer to humans. Much, much closer.

    Sorry, Klingons _are_ not that smart. A society that doesn’t value science, and that thinks you should die in battle, would not develop the sort of medical tech and procedures necessary to do something like this. Might as well have swapped Voq’s brain into a human body, a bit like Spocks Brain.

    As for Discovery being oh so serialized and dark and dramatic, unlike the other Trek shows… you did watch DS9, did you? Discovery isn’t that serialized, not as much as DS9 was at times, and not as much as many other shows these days are. More than TOS, TNG or VOY? Sure. But I wouldn’t say more than ENT season 3. And while Discovery is trying to be dark etc., I don’t think it really is. It’s spending far too little time on the war for example… I mean it’s almost over, and we’re only midway through the first season!

    I did enjoy the episode, and would rank it maybe 2nd or 3rd after the second Mudd story. It certainly is moving in the right direction, and showing that just slightly modified Defiant? Great! It doesn’t have to be a carbon copy of what we saw in TOS. But it should be close enough to see that it’s the same ship, that it belongs in the universe at this point in time. They can update it a bit, of course. Personally I think the original Defiant was covered with another hull, maybe some sort of armoring. That would explain some of the changes and make sense. Also the added guns between the warp struts.

    Almost seems to me as if the production team changed a lot after all the fan outrage over pretty much everything. “We don’t want too serialized.” Ok, lets make it sort of serialized, but also not. “Where are the ships from TOS?” Here we go, the Defiant. “Klingons only talking Klingon ruins the show.” Some Klingons speak English. Not that that’s a bad thing, I just wish they could have been done earlier in production. I hope next up: Real Klingons. Somewhere. No need for them to be prominent, just let us know they exist. Maybe DSC-Klingons are part of the efforts to revert the Augment virus, and only in later episodes these experiments will have more success.

    • Victorinox

      “A society that doesn’t value science, and that thinks you should die in battle, would not develop the sort of medical tech and procedures necessary to do something like this”

      Klingons, a society that achieved interstellar faster than light travel, energy weapons, and transporters, can’t figure out some surgery techniques? Come on man…

      The Japanese used to think they should die in battle and crashed their Zero planes on the decks of Allied ships in WW2. I want to hear anyone telling me they weren’t/aren’t technologically advanced or didn’t/don’t value science.

    • The klingons have been in space longer than the Vulcan’s. To act like they are dumb and incapable of science, shows you have little understanding of Klingons.

  • Dirk Baab

    Hi Everybody,

    Sorry in advancene for misspelling, German Fan here trying to speak

    english….

    here is my theory:

    Lorca is originaly from the Mirror Universe!

    Why?

    Here are the clues:
    I don’t give a dam about the Sapcewhale? And i still dont give a dam… ?? Very Starfleet…

    He needs Burnham
    Here are the clues:

    1) Bring her back, or dont come back at all! (to Tyler)
    2) Lorca won’t get her to go on a Misssion, stating “it’s to

    dangeraous…” Why?

    Lorca has all these scars on his back.
    Where would he have gotten those? There is no report that he has

    been captuarted let alone tortuored.

    When the Admiral sleeps with him he snaps and points a Phaser to

    her face which indicates that he’s afraid, which
    would indicate the paranoic behaviour of the Mirror Universe.

    Then, when the Admiral wants to take the Discvovery away from him he panics and almost starts starts crying, saying “Please don’t take away my ship. she’s all i have”
    I would say what he really meant was “don’t take away my ship. she’s all i have (to get back home)” to the mirror universe.

    Next:
    I think he knows exactly where they are.
    He overwrote the coordinates on the Captains chair if you look closely….

    So They have arrived in the Mirror Universe!

    And THATS why he needs Burnham:
    According to the History that was discovereed on the Datacrystal in the Debriesfield Lorca killed Burnham and is at large since that event.

    My theory now is, that this correct: Lorca is at large, just that he was somehow transferrred to our Universe and took command of the Discovery, or have you ever seeen such an “I dont give a shit abou’ everything”-Captain ever in Star Trek?
    I personally love him.

    My Predection:
    Lorca is from the Mirrorverse,
    He protects and needs Burnham
    He needs her to act as the Burnham from the Mirrorverse (which worked out as of Ep 10)

    He needs or wants the data on the USS Defiant.

    Why?

    Well, i dont know, might be, and here im not so sure….since it is the most advancend ship in the Terran Empire (100 years ahead and now probably being refitted) he wants it as a weapon.

    Who is the faceless Emperor?
    Obviously Phillipa Giorgio!
    You think that crazy??
    Hold on for a Minute and think about that….
    Who else would be so pissed that he or she would destroy the “Buran” because Burnham was killed by her Captain, in my mind that can only pointz to Georgio (Or Mirror-Amanda??? Probably not Mirror Sarek, that would be, how shall i put it… Ilogical 😉

    After all, thats just my theory and i want to appolagize for my misspellings.
    As i said, German tryingn to speak english….

    Let me know what you guys think about my theories…

    Have a good night

    Cheers from Germany

    DIRK 🙂

  • Dirk Baab

    Sorry in advancene for misspelling, German Fan here trying to speak

    english….

    here is my theory:

    Lorca is originaly from the Mirror Universe!

    Why?

    Here are the clues:
    I don’t give a dam about the Sapcewhale? And i still dont give a dam… ?? Very Starfleet…

    He needs Burnham
    Here are the clues:

    1) Bring her back, or dont come back at all! (to Tyler)
    2) Lorca won’t get her to go on a Misssion, stating “it’s to

    dangeraous…” Why?

    Lorca has all these scars on his back.
    Where would he have gotten those? There is no report that he has

    been captuarted let alone tortuored.

    When the Admiral sleeps with him he snaps and points a Phaser to

    her face which indicates that he’s afraid, which
    would indicate the paranoic behaviour of the Mirror Universe.

    Then, when the Admiral wants to take the Discvovery away from him he panics and almost starts starts crying, saying “Please don’t take away my ship. she’s all i have”
    I would say what he really meant was “don’t take away my ship. she’s all i have (to get back home)” to the mirror universe.

    Next:
    I think he knows exactly where they are.
    He overwrote the coordinates on the Captains chair if you look closely….

    So They have arrived in the Mirror Universe!

    And THATS why he needs Burnham:
    According to the History that was discovereed on the Datacrystal in the Debriesfield Lorca killed Burnham and is at large since that event.

    My theory now is, that this correct: Lorca is at large, just that he was somehow transferrred to our Universe and took command of the Discovery, or have you ever seeen such an “I dont give a shit abou’ everything”-Captain ever in Star Trek?
    I personally love him.

    My Predection:
    Lorca is from the Mirrorverse,
    He protects and needs Burnham
    He needs her to act as the Burnham from the Mirrorverse (which worked out as of Ep 10)

    He needs or wants the data on the USS Defiant.

    Why?

    Well, i dont know, might be, and here im not so sure….since it is the most advancend ship in the Terran Empire (100 years ahead and now probably being refitted) he wants it as a weapon.

    Who is the faceless Emperor?
    Obviously Phillipa Giorgio!
    You think that crazy??
    Hold on for a Minute and think about that….
    Who else would be so pissed that he or she would destroy the “Buran” because Burnham was killed by her Captain, in my mind that can only pointz to Georgio (Or Mirror-Amanda??? Probably not Mirror Sarek, that would be, how shall i put it… Ilogical 😉

    After all, thats just my theory and i want to appolagize for my misspellings.
    As i said, German tryingn to speak english….

    Let me know what you guys think about my theories…

    Have a good night

    Cheers from Germany

    DIRK 🙂

  • Mo

    “Discovery is going to need to find a way to blend the historical campiness of the Mirror Universe with the serious dramatic tone that it’s already established.”

    They did find a way. They got rid of most of the camp, and good riddance. This is more than just a one-episode romp through a bunch of silly costume changes. This is the Mirrorverse with genuine longer-term consequences, as we hear at the start of the very next episode. That “slow clap” for Burnham’s appearance on the bridge was pretty much the sort of “cornball” I’d expect from a dictatorship run on fear. I expect our current White House staff behave similarly.

    “It’s every Star Trek fan’s sworn duty to obsess over that one piece of scientific wizardry they just can’t believe, while happily accepting 99 other pieces of equally unbelievable pseudoscience.”

    Spot on! The curse of Trek nerddom, always trying shackle the franchise into endlessly quoting itself as it drags itself behind anything new!
    Tech debates are a bottomless rathole that some nerds never find their way out of. My chief complaints about this storyline are about the likelihood of a high-value prisoner remaining unguarded and un-monitored during her stay in Discovery’s brig. Likewise for a Sickbay where a tactically-vital crew member is being treated, where a doctor (described as the smartest person on board) has just casually told a potentially dangerous security risk that he is a security risk without having first summoned a couple of red shirts as a precaution.

    “Spock’s death and subsequent funeral don’t lose their potency just because we know he’ll live again.”

    Absolute solipsist rubbish. Spock’s resurrection in the very next movie cheapened his death and reduced that tragic moment to a 1980s Marvel comic written for 12-year-olds. If even death has little consequence, it ceases being effective as a story element.