We’re starting to get more ancillary information on the in-universe world of Star Trek: Discovery as we approach September’s premiere, and now that Discovery data is coming from merchandise coming out of STLV in Las Vegas!

An aft view of the USS SHENZHOU.

FanSets has been producing Star Trek pin releases for the past several years, and this year at STLV they’re debuting their first Discovery pins, including a few characters – but also a dedicated pin for the USS Shenzhou, captained by Philippa Georgiou (Michelle Yeoh).

This new pin reveals that the Shenzhou is categorized as a Walker-class starship, which is a new design and designation for the Trek universe – though of course given the show’s mid-23rd Century period setting, it’s not impossible that the Walker-class line of ships weren’t used much past that era.

The SHENZHOU breaks through the clouds.

There’s not many pre-Kirk reference points for the “Walker” behind the Walker-class, with only one in-universe character with that name (an Enterprise-era MACO soldier, not even seen on-screen)… but perhaps it’s a sly reference to lead actor Sonequa Martin-Green’s previous role?

In reality, longtime Trek starship designer John Eaves revealed that the class name is actually named after X-15 test pilot Joe Walker, who flew spaceplanes for the United States in the mid-1960’s.

We’ll see what other news may come out about this class at the Las Vegas Discovery panels this Wednesday!

  • Gregory Stitz

    Correction: mid 23rd century.

  • pittrek

    Johnnie Walker class?

    • I’ll drink to that!

    • The Science Fiction Oracle

      “Jim, Beam” me up!

  • BDSserial

    I do not think, that there will be a pin for the Discovery, because of the fact, that we didn’t see any clear picture of this ship.
    Even though it is interesting that there is a Shenzhou Pin, cause I thought that this ship would be distroyed in the pilot, so why should we have a Colletor-Pin for a barely used Starfleet Ship.

    • DIGINON

      They haven’t released a clear picture of Discovery, yet, because they want to keep the exact look a surprise. However, I’m sure that there will also be merchandise depicting U.S.S. Discovery once the series actually starts. As for Shenzhou, many people are speculating whether that ship (and its crew) will make it past the pilot.

      • Your Worst Nightmare

        And it might be something they’re waiting to reveal at STLV this weekend. What better time to fully introduce your hero ship than at the biggest Trek convention of the year? Six weeks before the premiere too. Seems like a great time to do it.

      • TUP

        Perhaps they are waiting for the premiere and will give us a “beauty fly by” shot.

        More likely, the first time we see the ship on screen, its coming to someone’s rescue. At the last possible moment, out of the debris and smoke comes the Discovery.

        • DIGINON

          I definitely expect some beauty shots in the premiere. They will want to show off the capabilities of the ship (just like the TNG premiere featured the saucer separation).

    • SpaceCadet

      I don’t think it’s been stated anywhere that the Shenzhou is destroyed in the pilot. The first episode is probably only about an hour long so it would make more sense to me if we as the audience got to spend a little more time with that ship and its crew before it is destroyed. That way it’s destruction and the deaths of some of the officers we’ve been introduced to will have more impact.

      • TUP

        There were rumors it was destroyed but we saw in the trailer another ship being destroyed.

        I think they are preserving many secrets. But people are putting together the idea if Burnham and other Shenzhou crew end up on Discovery and if Burnham results in something terrible, that perhaps its the destruction of her previous ship.

        I think there is a case that Giorgeou doesnt seem to appear in scenes from later episodes in the trailer either (could be wrong). But her IMDB says she’s in 15 episodes (IMDB is not a great source for that though).

        But its possible the ship is not destroyed. That Burnham simply gets imprisoned or transferred as a result of her actions. If she is imprisoned and some time has passed, it might explain why another member or two of Shenzhou have also moved on to Discovery.

        And thus, Shenzhou might show up again. If it was only used in the premiere, would they build full, separate sets for it or re-dress others?

        • The Science Fiction Oracle

          See my post above. I think (my conjecture only) the Shenzhou and Giorgeou are toast at the end of the premiere, but we keep getting flashbacks during season one to support Michael’s character development…like in the series, Lost, where that story background technique worked so very well in the early seasons.

          • TUP

            You could definitely be correct!

      • The Science Fiction Oracle

        It’s just my opinion, but I do think it will be destroyed in the pilot, and I am predicting that there will be flashback scenes (think of “Lost”) during the entire season with more backstory on Michael and her time on the Shenzou…but most of that crew will have been killed off at the end of premiere.

    • The Science Fiction Oracle

      LOL. You can’t compare a fictional future timeline with and actual historical timeline.

      • Why not? It was always an essential quality of Star Trek that things changed over time and that this development was visualized. This sets it apart from stationary timelines such as in Star Wars where technology doesn’t progress and everything (even the characters) remain essentially the same. At least, continuity was a staple of Star Trek. In Discovery it may boil down to “generic” Star Trek whose time and setting doesn’t matter, visually and possibly also story-wise.

        • The Science Fiction Oracle

          Because you are trying to create an analogy between a known historical fact with a fictional element of a made up story. It violates all principles of logic. The analogy is invalid.

          • It’s perfectly valid for all the reasons that I mentioned. By your so called logic, there would be no rules at all for the look of anything fictional.

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            No, I took a course in logic in college. That sort of analogy is not generally accepted.

            But still, you can make up and apply all of the rules to a fictional universe that you want. It’s just that your WWI ship analogy is DOA, that’s all.

          • I can live with it being “generally not accepted”.

        • Ace Stephens

          This sets it apart from stationary timelines such as in Star Wars where
          technology doesn’t progress and everything (even the characters) remain
          essentially the same.

          Eh. Starkiller Base was bigger and destroyed more or…something. I don’t know.

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            Yea, great point. Starkiller base was a huge advancement on the Death Star, and could fire into hyperspace.

            It was NOT a stationary timeline…seemingly unrealistic advancements were made in just a few years to serve the story, and to update the devastation level from the previous movies.

          • Because they felt compelled to change *something* about the old story. And even that (the destruction of multiple planets) remained a side note without any further impact. The rest of Ep VII is pretty much all the same look and feel as always because things in Star Wars don’t change (and events simply repeat).

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            Exactly. Thanks!

          • The question is, do you want the same in Star Trek? Things that change pointlessly or merely plot-driven?

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            I prefer some dynamic changes to the look of the universe, ships, uniforms, aliens, etc., update “the look” of the show. An update is needed.

          • But the Shenzhou is not even an update. It is a design that totally belongs to a previous incarnation of Star Trek that was set in a different era.

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            Well, you have a point in that I am not crazy about the Shenzhou either, but I love the Discovery. And for the Discovery, it certainly looks like they went back to Rick Sternbach’s concepts for pre-Enterprise starships, and also got back to the “clean design” of that that earlier starship era which was so rudely violated by the Berman/Drexler NX-01 (the most offensive ship to Trek design heritage in Star Trek history).

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            You know your reaction does remind me of my reaction to seeing the NX-01, which looked to me like it came from an alternate universe where TOS/TMP Enterprises had never happened, where Berman/Drexler just forced the issue and made a TNG-derived version of an earlier Enterprise …they completely screwed TOS and the established Enterprise design canon that had already been defined by Rodenberry and Sternbach. So I understand your complaint.

            However, the good thing here is that unlike on Enterprise, this time the out of place starship is not the starship central to the story.

            And for the Discovery, it certainly looks like they went back to Rick Sternbach’s concepts for pre-Enterprise starships, and also got back to the “clean design” of that that earlier starship era which was so rudely violated by the Berman/Drexler NX-01 (the most offensive ship to Trek design heritage in Star Trek history).

          • TUP

            We can argue about the visuals of the series forever. But they made the creative decision to update the visuals for a modern audience. 60’s style TOS visuals werent going to work.

            And it appears they have respected the more recent incarnations of past “designs”.

            Franklin – Enterprise – Kelvin – Shenzhou – Discovery. Makes sense to me. If you suddenly went back to TOS style visuals, you render all the other things completely out of place.

            Its far easier to accept that TOS simply was made in the 60’s and this is the new look.

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            I think the Discovery though is desgned based on some of the starship concepts Sternbach and Rodenberry were looking at in the late 70’s during the Phase II work and TMP — some of which became canon for appearing as paintings on the wall of the Enterprise in a scene from TMP, and then with the drawings and technical information provided in the 1980 Star Trek Spaceflight Chronology.

            I agree with you though on the design heritage of the Shenzhou, though as you know, I can’t stand the NX-01 (but the Shenzhou looks a lot better than that piece of garbage). 🙂

          • TUP

            True. But I would think (and hope) that the on screen visuals will look much better than the concepts created in the 70’s. Although the teaser Fuller released last year certainly dont lol

          • We have to differentiate visuals from the 1960s with the technical limitations of the time on one hand, and design of the fictional technology on the other hand. I’m all for updating the former (which should be well known), so I ask you not to put words in my mouth. If we re talking about the design and style, go to Deviantart and you’ll see countless examples of TOS era ships with a great level of detail that would look awesome on the TV screen. And ultimately the handheld devices of Discovery prove that style and finish/visual are independent of each other.

      • Rob C

        And you can’t confuse the words “an” and ” and” which you just did……

        • The Science Fiction Oracle

          Starting sentences with a conjunction is bad form, even though it’s technically allowed.

    • Eric Cheung

      That’s clearly a Starfleet vessel. It’s numbered 47.

  • Your Worst Nightmare

    I kinda want that pin. I didn’t realize such a collection existed. Might have to get a few of these.

    • MattR

      I definitely suggest checking out fansets.com to see all their stuff – they’ve made some really nice pins particularly the ship pins. The character pins are pretty cool and have really good likenessses and they’ve done some really obscure characters, which I love.

      • Your Worst Nightmare

        I definitely checked it out. So cool! Don’t know I’d do the characters but the ships are nice.

  • curtst

    I am going to say it was named after Joseph A. Walker. An American astronaut in the early days of NASA. He died in 1966 after his F-104 crashed into a XB-70.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_A._Walker

    • Donny Pearson

      I agree.

    • DIGINON

      According to concept artist John Eaves you are correct: It’s named after Joseph A. Walker.

      • May we ask the source of this, please?

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    • Brandon Nash

      my great uncle!

  • SpaceCadet

    I think the Shenzhou/Walker Class is a very cool design and I definitely prefer it to the Discovery which has a broad, flat, and unsexy secondary hull. I’ve always really liked starship designs that have the nacelles swept down as opposed to up like the Miranda class (The Reliant) and the Nebula Class introduced in TNG.

    • TUP

      I really like it too. It has obvious nods to Enterprise, whether intentional or not.

    • Ace Stephens

      …unsexy…

      I think I get what people are trying to say by using the term “sexy” (or variations on it) – something akin to “attractive” or similar, which is a known definition of the term. However, while I am well-aware of fan interest in viewing elements of the material in those regards, every time someone uses such an adjective in relation to the franchise in a manner that isn’t related to character relationships or the like, my brain has to take a moment to compute.

      Since – and I’m not meaning to judge or shame anyone here – my sexual interest in starships (and/or want to contextualize them via associations to a sexual nature) is…nonexistent.

      Just thought this was interesting to note. I saw Frain use the term the other day, I believe (although there it had a clearer association to character relationships), and this is the second time in a short timeframe that my brain has had to go, “Wait – what are we talking about here?”

      • The Science Fiction Oracle

        Yea, I prefer to use the term, “clean design,” which I view was applied to TOS, TMP/TOS movie’s starships, and looks to be making a comeback with the Discovery design. However, the Walker class is not as clean a design as the Discovery, and has more Berman-era “busy” design features to it.

    • M33

      The top picture looked almost like the NX-01 to me, but with angled nacelles.

  • McFortner

    Wow, it’s the Ares from Axanar. What a surprise.

    • Indeed, except it is USS Ares without the traditional styling of the period.

      • Not really, its a centuar layout. Not the voyger inspired Ares layout

    • mr joyce

      lol, i thought the same

    • I am not seeing much, if any Ares in this design.

      • Your Worst Nightmare

        Me neither. Not that it matters, but the Ares was based off of the Reliant, which, hey, is owned by the copyright holders and not Alec Peters.

        • Most fan designs have sometimes in common with canon designs. Fans love kitbashing and really there is only so many ways you can arrange the parts.

          • Your Worst Nightmare

            True. But I get very tired of the Axanar fans thinking Discovery is stealing everything. Newsflash: CBS owns all of Star Trek. They don’t have to steal from Axanar. They own it.

          • Axanar got hammered as they tried to steal someones IP. Legally CBS had to nail them to the wall or lose the IP. If the walker looks like anything, its a NX based version of the Centaur

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/be66ef0921222a0a59ea0505edc0259d3ee6350fee6e3ac880add0a110e37c3b.jpg

          • Your Worst Nightmare

            Very apt comparison.
            And your commentary on Axanar makes me think I’m going to like you, Shannon. 🙂

          • First time I have ever posted here lol. I post often elsewhere with Disque though. On Axanar, I have no love for the greedy aholes in charge of it, they hurt trek fans everyone with their h=underhanded practices. That said, I do like some of the ship designs created for the project.

          • Your Worst Nightmare

            Don’t mince words, Shannon. What do you REALLY think about Axanar? Lol

            There are some nice designs out of Axanar for sure but the Ares? Well, she kinda bores me. We’ve seen that configuration far too often.

          • It has a nice base, they tried to hard to make it look dated, like the TOS Connie. It really does not make sense from a design point of view to o from the other designs they had to a more primitive and simplistic looking design.

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            Agree on everything you said here, dude

          • Ty

    • The Science Fiction Oracle

      Not really. Looks more like a cross between the Reliant and the NX-01

  • mr joyce

    ‘walker texas ranger’ class, because, you know….chuck norris even has ships named after his characters, because hes such a badass

    • DC Forever

      Need a Romulan “Rambo Class” now! Lol

  • Tom Cruise Never Phones It IN

    Yikes…

  • Fiery Little One

    Huh. Interesting.

  • The Science Fiction Oracle

    Is the “Walker Class” possibly an inside production team joke related to SMG’s Walking Dead time…ii.e. “walkers”

  • Mrplatitude

    Excited to get to see more of this ship and the Discovery

  • Rob C

    Everything about this show says “f&^% canon”, from Spock having a stepsister, to ship designs and weapons straight out of the Abramsverse. To the, um…………….fishhead Klingons.

    • The Science Fiction Oracle

      Sybock and Robert Fletcher just called to say hello!

      • DC Forever

        Lol – well said!

    • Lets go over this.
      1:Spock can have 12 dozen siblings without canon violation as the number has never been said. Also adfing family happens in trek, all the time
      2: the ships do not look like kelvin ships, they are simply modern.
      3:The weapons do not look kelvin
      4:klingons change all the time
      5: If you add hair they look damn close to DS9 klingons

      • The Science Fiction Oracle

        Yep!!!

      • 1. True, nothing ever said Spock had no step-siblings. We only heard about Sybok in Star Trek V, no mention of him earlier than that.
        2. Indeed. USS Shenzou looks like a believable evolution of NX-01. But, I should add also that the USS Franklin was my favourite part of an otherwise terrible movie.
        3. I don’t remember the look of the weapons from Abramsverse.
        4 and 5. The Klingons are really starting to grow on me. If you put these guys in TNG/DS9 Klingon uniforms, and add a bunch of hair, they’d look believably like TNG/DS9 Klingons. I’m really stepping back from my earliest comments about how disappointed I was with these Klingons.

      • TUP

        These complainers never let facts get in the way of their whine!

  • M33

    Well… my great great grandfather would be happy with that name!
    It was his!

  • M33

    BTW, everyone,
    Just got word that the Discovery theme song is INSTRUMENTAL! No lyrics!!!
    Now that I think is something all of us can agree is a good thing!

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  • TIG1701

    Ok, that’s cool!

  • Mo

    Like almost ever ship we saw in ENT, this is too snazzy a design for a Kirk-era ship.

    • TUP

      Just like Entrerprise. Yup. because its an design evolution. Accept it.

      • Mo

        Evolution is probably the wrong word if you’re going back in time, no?

        It’s not a huge deal-breaker for me, but that was the one production-design category that I always felt should actually look less sophisticated, the farther back we looked.

        Unless you’re okay with the idea that, at some point, Earth spaceships suddenly jump from looking like a NASA fuel tank to looking like a Porsche with sculpted wings.

        • TUP

          Design evolution moving forward from the earliest ships depicted in most recent times.

          Franklin – Enterprise – Kelvin – Shenzhou – Discovery

          They appear (based on our limited views) to all be a reasonable evolution from one to the other.

          • Mo

            Cherry-picking. Also, you’re conveniently mixing timelines.

            Again, it’s not a huge issue for me. ENT was dismissable for far more important reasons.

          • TUP

            Not at all. Every ship I mentioned was Prime Universe.

          • M33

            Some believe that Kelvin timeline is different in the past, too, because Sulu was made gay.
            I think that sounds silly, and is divergent with the Encyclopedia.

          • TUP

            Its an interesting theory but its not canon. It was stated clearly that the intention was the universe was Prime until Nero appeared, splitting it off into the KT. Kelvin was therefore, Prime Universe.

            Sulu being gay was not a canon violation. His attraction to women, I cant recall how many times it was shown, but Uhura for one, he was under the influence. Plus, being gay doesnt preclude an attraction to women or a flirtation with women.

            Beyond even included a daughter to align with established canon in the Prime Universe.

            Sulu was never shown to have a female partner or shown not to have a male partner in Prime.

            So no issue there.

          • M33

            Hey… Sulu could be bi!
            Why pigeonhole it, right?

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            We never new enough of Sulu’s personal life to demonstrably decide his sexuality.

          • Pedro Ferreira

            He went after Uhura in Naked Time.

          • Dusty Ayres

            Only because he was under the influence of a virus.Nothing more, and nothing less.

          • Pedro Ferreira

            He went after Uhuru and tried to pick her up because he was suffering from a virus that made him drunk, made him lose his inhibitions therefore he did show interest towards Uhuru sexually.

          • Frank Lazar

            Just remember when the timeline looks confused…. blame Barry Allen.

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            Please check out my posts above to Shannon…fun discussion!

        • TOS is really the odd duck. ENT was 2150, so yeah its not gonna look like realistic ships ehen no shops ib the setting do. They are not gonna be NASA,looking as trek is not hard sci fi

          You eould have had to mske ENT look 1930s to make it look older than the clear 60 designed connie

          • Mo

            I’d have settled for 1950s.

            Have a look at this designer’s timeline before you dismiss the idea of “realistic” ships. http://www.starfleet-museum.org

          • I have, but those ended with ENT. That ship has sailed.

          • Mo

            For some, yes. Mike Okuda has the Daedalus class replacing NX-01 in his franchise chronology, sometime after Doug Drexler’s “fifth season” refit adds a third hull to the NX to bring it closer to the Connie design you’re dismissing.

            Every fan’s head-canon is different. We’re both cherry-picking. So are the producers of DSC.

          • The “refot” was ill thought put and made zero sense.

            There is no cherrypicking here man. ENT is canon, the round ship is not, at lest not with a set era and makes no design seince after 2250.

            From a design point of view, ENT ended the round ships and the TOS connie. There are simply no way to make those design forms look newer than any of the 2150 starfleet ships.

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            The NX-01 was a complete violation of canon, and attempted to “re-write” the starship design canon that Rodenberry and Sternbach came up with in the late 1970’s — those earlier Enterprises were all specifically shown on a wall of the refitted Enterprise in a scene of TMP — hence those are the Rodenberry-established canon earlier Enterprises…and they were published in the seminal 1980 Star Trek Spaceflight Chronology, which shows all the ships up to the re-fit, and guess what — there is NOTHING RESEMBLING the NX-01. The NX-01 should have instead been the XCV 330, and it should have looked like this bold painting shown here, which would have shown a much more “cleaner design” prelude to the 1701.

            Instead, for reasons known only to them (hubris on re-working Rodenberry’s Star Trek?), instead of going with this awesome futuristic and bold design, Drexler and Berman violated Roddenberry’s established canon and gave us that lame bucket of bolts that looks like a early TNG ship, not a predecessor to the 1701 and refit ships.

            You are right though, in 99.9% of cases, what you see on screen in canon. But when you have a clear inconsistency in canon, you need to look at the information you have to make a determination of what is canon. And you also have the special case of what did Gene Roddenberry establish — his views should nearly always prevail in examining canon. So here, we have established Enterprise design chronology set out by Rodenberry himself as Enterprise canon, but then years later, after his death, a Star Trek production team decides to deviate from that canon and re-write that canon with a starship design that makes absolutely no sense for that era, and is as ugly as a turd to boot. So in this case, my verdict is that the NX-01 violated canon the GR specifically established, and therefore, WE ARE NOT REQUIRED TO ACCEPT THIS AS CANON.
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/94ecf4a1d8db0a7b903eec5a0a2ab760ab485428a91b0fbe38fe0cc97c917333.jpg

          • 1: ENT did not really break canon as officially we knew damned little about it. Sure we had some unofficial stuff and some stuff someone had stuffed in a notebook here or there, but this whole era was mostly blank in canon

            2: Nothing gave a date for that thing and and it sure as heck does not look like a warp ship.

            3: Roddenberry is dead and no longer has control over canon. So they can retcon and add all they want. Its not an actual violation or retcon unless it actually changes something set down in setting.

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            NO, THE GUIDE IS OFFICIAL. I’m not talking about some notes. I am talking about the official Stat Trek Spaceflight Chronology guide which was mass produced, and came out with Rodenberry’s blessing shortly after TMP came out. That, and the original Technical Manual, were the primary guides to fans at that time.

            ALSO, THE PREVIOUS ENTERPRISE STARSHIP DESIGNS ARE CANON. They were showed as paintings on the wall of the Enterprise in TMP. And in an interview, Rodenberry said that the paintings were done with his input to artist Rick Sternbach to reprsent ALL of the previous Enterprises, back to the aircraft carrier…and guess what…NO NX-01

            The NX-01 violated TOS/TMP canon. So fans are free to decide for themselves about whether they want to overlook this or not. I choose not to. The NX-01 is persona non grata to me — it’s like that crazy uncle that maybe you have to tolerate once a year at Thanksgiving.

          • No, it is not canon. Nor are the tech manuals or novels. Unless its on the screen it is not offical canon.

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            Dude, I will say it again:

            “those earlier Enterprises were all specifically shown on a wall of the refitted Enterprise in a scene of TMP”

            Canon!

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            Here is your on-screen canon — a still I just took from that seminal scene in the TMP, where all Enterprises back to the sailing ship are shown (and Decker says to Ilia: “these are the previous ships called Enterprise”). There is the XVC-330, which should have been the starship for the Enterprise series. The lineage starts with sailing ship, goes to the aircraft carrier, the space shuttle, the XCV-330 and then the 1701. THERE IS NO NX-01 SHOWN???

            Would you have us believe that on the main crew briefing deck of the Starship Enterprise around 2260, where they have a special commemorative section that shows Enterprises of the past, that they would leave out Admiral Archer’s NX-01. SERIOUSLY???

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/f403ea417c5678ac8e7476f45d0a6c178b5188bc6f567ce086aa846dfb9b460d.jpg

          • Yes, its on screen and ENT included it. Sorry man, but as much as you hate this, the NX does not violate canon by existing. There is nothing on screen saying “There is no such thing as an NX class Enterprise” as it was not though of, but many things did not exist until they did.

            And yes, Trek get rewritten all the time. Hello Klingons which got a total rework in TMP as did every single other aspect of Trek.

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            You are ignoring my question:

            Would you have us believe that on the main crew briefing deck of the NCC-1701 Starship Enterprise around 2260, where they have a special commemorative section that shows Enterprises of the past (where a commander in a scene definitively says, “these are the previous ships called Enterprise”), that they would leave out Admiral Archer’s NX-01?

          • As the movie was created in 79 or so, and NX was not created to 2001, its natural not to have it. You are axting like every single part of ST history was pinned out and it was not. It was unfolding as we watched and stuff gets retconed all the freaking time.

            Did you rage over the klingon changes like this? The massive changes to the Connie that can not be the same ship?

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            LOL. So first you tell me it has to be on-screen to be canon, and then I show a scene from Rodenberry’s TMP where it clearly shows what the predecessor Enterprise should have looked like, and now, all of a sudden, you backtrack on it having to be on-screen and admit that Berman and company screwed with the canon and ignored the already established Roddenberry-defined Enterprise design history — which was exactly my point.

            It took awhile, but I am glad to see that we are apparently now in agreement. Canon was revised, with the Enterprise creative team completely deviating from the on-screen canon we both agree is in TMP, and so that opens it up to fan interpretation — exactly as I have been saying.

          • Do you see anything on screen that says the NX could not have existed? No, you do not. You do not see it in a series of images, but nothing says it could not have existed. You do not seem to understand how canon works.

            It is only a canon violation if it does something that is said can’t be done. Someone who is an only child having a brother, someone who is said to have failed something, later it is said did not fail it and so on.

            Having a ship, that was never mentioned show up is not a canon violation and less you have it on film saying “There was no ship before this class ever”. Sorry a series of images does not cut it

            TMP was a reboot of TOS, a total change of everything. And no, it is not what you want it to be, sorry nothing in canon forbids ENT, not a single thing. That list of images, someone got fired for missing one..there done.

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            Yea, right. ;-0

            I think I simply caught you off guard by actually producing that scene and dialog in response to your “it has to be on-screen” remark, and now you are just getting a bit silly with the reasons why you can’t accept it.

            You are free to interpret it how you want. That’s my whole point given it is essentially a schism in canon that therefore allows each of us fans to determine which is canon. I’m going with Roddenberry.

            And you bring up the Klingon change in TMP. I agree with you. I accept what Rodenberry was quoted to say about that change, which was, “that’s the way I always intended them to be; don’t worry about the man behind the curtain.” So I take the same approach when watching Enterprise — I ignore that ugly ship and instead imagine it’s the correct design that Roddenberry intended — from that wall on the 1701 in 2260 that I saw on screen!

          • No, son. You do not understand what a canon violation is. Something not being a film before is not a violation. It not being in a series of images is not proof it never existed. All it is proof of is it was not created yet in the real world. It simply does not fit the definition as a canon violation.

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            I sense you are getting a bit chippy, so I am going to end this now…BTW, I was around when TOS aired and know/knew many of the creative team/actors, including GR — which is why I always defer to his canon.

            Your view is fine — we can all interpret this canon schism in our own way.

            Peace!

          • Also, I do not mean that “son” to come out condescending. Its a habit of speech and I forget sometimes people find it to be condescending. I Would edit it out, but you likely saw it. So, please do not take offense as it was not meant.

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            OK, fair enough. Yes, you can see in my post below that I did not take that as you intended. No big deal, friend!

            For the most part, we seem to agree on a lot here.

          • It is likely semantics really. I do not see it as a violation, you do. I just did not want it to turn nasty when I did not intend it that way. I tend to type as I talk and well, it can come off harsher than I intend. 😀

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            Believe me, I know what you mean! 🙂

            It’s been a fun discussion. We are never going to agree, but that is OK.

          • True enough and that is fine. I see your point, I simply do not agree with it. But then after first contact you could write ENT up as a time line change or a whole other timeline. We know FC did happen in ENT after all and really starfleet should have known about the borg at that point. If ya think of it FC really screwed with the timeline hard core.

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            Good point!

          • Did you ever get to see some of the NX concept designs for ENT?

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            You mean the other John Eaves design that looked like a direct predecessor to the 1701?

          • Yeah, there were some odd ones, including a missile shaped one. I like the one you meant, but it looked too modern to come fore the connie, but then, they all did.

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            Yea, I just found the one you are talking about on memory alpha — looks like Star Trek’s take on the Battlestar Galactica.

            Canon discussions aside, I think the biggest reason I don’t like the NX-01, is the problem I have with that entire series — it should have been bold and retro, but instead it was like TNG 0.5

            By contrast, for TNG, even though I personally don’t find the Enterprise D attractive, I have a hell of a lot of respect for it’s boldness and the thought that Rodenberry and Probert put into it’s design. It’s epic, bold and makes sense for the 24th century.

          • I loved the updated look in ENT. I could have done with a non saucer design. My issue was it’s lack luster scripts. I feel they really missed the mark.

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            Yea, don’t get me started on the writing!

            When I say, retro, I am meaning, for example, how in the Kelvin movies they had modernized uniforms that were also TOS retro. It’s hard to do, but it can be done.

          • As ai said, I liked it personally I think the TOS look needed massivily updated so I was cool with the direction they went.

            Have you seen this? https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/98850cae5dc6bba8a263862efe01caf30cbabd76e233522161e03abe46c65784.jpg

            There are a ton of fan designs for stuff like this. This ship style is not one I like, but something along this line would have been mpre fitting

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            YES! I’ve always loved the Daedalus design, even those I realize it’s ugly. I like the 2001 influence.

            Have you seen this original Phase II refit design from 1977? It’s subtly different from TMP refit — a beautiful ship, like a work of art! It’s also my avatar on Disqus, but most people just assume that is TMP Enterprise.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/0c4bbc6ff184d88562f9f476a4533c4af64dbedcb9373683966fafd0b2b0f8fe.jpg

          • Honestly, My head canon is this or the TMP ship are the TOS ship. The form designs are just lovely and they do not really age. Really, you stick a modern texture on that and she would look like a current design. Total homerun from a design standpoint IMO

          • Frank Lazar

            As I understand it, Roddenberry’s role in the shaping of Star Trek was severely curtailed after the disastrous bungling of the first movie. He was given more or less an honorary title, but the helm was put into other hands.

          • Frank Lazar

            TMP? Are you really going hang canon on one of the worst pieces of crap to be marketed under the Star Trek franchise? The only one worse than the first movie was the fifth. And I won’t even go into the TNG movies.

          • Dusty Ayres

            I just love how frazzled some of you get about canon. It’s a show and they are doing a prequel to something that was made 50 years ago. Star Trek was always more about the stories and messaging than the look. If they screw that up; roast em alive and kick em in the you know what! If they don’t; then enjoy it. Kirk out!

            -William Shatner, 2017

          • Frank Lazar

            Sometimes not even life is canon. after all … The Space Shuttle Enterprise….NEVER FLEW IN SPACE. It was used for a couple of glider tests and then tested to the point where it was no longer safe to be made spaceworthy. And the XVC-330 may look nice as a painting, but it’s sure as hell not a Hero Ship.

          • Frank Lazar

            The Guide may have come out with Roddenberry’s blessing, but that doesn’t change that it wasn’t excluded from Roddenberry’s disavowal all print media, novels, game books, the Animated Series as non-canon. The man was noted for a lot of things… consistency wasn’t one of them. And not all of his ideas were great ones… The “Roddenberry Rule’ in particular was one of the dumbest shackles that he laid on his writers.

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            In my opinion, Okuda should not be allowed to mess with pre-TOS ships. He completely mixes and matches stuff that was never intended by the canon starship design history established by Rodenberry and Sternbach in the late 1970’s. Please see my post to Shannon below as well.

            Okuda should stick to the Berman era and not try to “fix” and “replace” what was done so great by his Trek forefathers.

          • Mo

            Golly. I guess the Oracle has spoken.

            Okuda was running the design side and authorized to do whatever he did. We can all continue to argue about what constitutes “canon” until rising sea levels remove Miami from the map.

            Every fan has his (or the relatively few “her”) own conception of what works.

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            LOL — I did say “In my opinion”

            I am maybe a little hard on Okuda. He’s left having to clean up the design mess that Drexler and others created.

            I would just prefer he stick with “his era” of Star Trek.

          • Mo

            Don’t bag on Drexler for following management’s orders. The man has great instincts that aren’t always given their proper hearing by people like Berman.

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            He is a good guy. But his first, best destiny is cutting edge make-up. They should have went back to Probert.

            But sure, if he really was following orders, then I can’t blame him…but I am not sure if we know that or not?

          • Mo

            Well, if you’re not sure whether we know that, then your “first, best destiny” proclamation is about as equally valid for me.

          • The Science Fiction Oracle

            True, but I love mixing in those Trek quotes. 🙂

    • The Science Fiction Oracle

      Actually, I agree with you regarding the Shenzhou. Seeing that ship does remind me of my reaction to seeing the NX-01, which looked to me like it came from an alternate universe where TOS/TMP Enterprises had never happened, where Berman/Drexler just forced the issue and made a TNG-derived version of an earlier Enterprise …they completely screwed TOS and the established Enterprise design canon that had already been defined by Rodenberry and Sternbach. So I understand your complaint.

      However, the good thing here is that unlike on Enterprise, this time the out of place starship is not the starship central to the story.

      The Discovery, by contrast, certainly looks like they went back to Rick Sternbach’s concepts for pre-Enterprise starships, and also got back to the “clean design” of that that earlier starship era which was so rudely violated by the Berman/Drexler NX-01 (the most offensive ship to Trek design heritage in Star Trek history).

      So maybe we grumble a bit about the Shenzhou, but then it blows up after the first 2 hours, and then we get to watch the appropriately designed Discovery for the next 5 years.

      • Mo

        I blame Berman more than the exceptionally talented art-department subordinate who was following Berman’s instructions. Drexler made his case for simpler design, and Berman rejected it.

        There’ll be other ships in this series, Starfleet and otherwise. I’ll bet they all look great, for the wrong reasons.

    • ToS screams 1960, so yeah its not gonna look old and primative. Only in trek do you hear the silly “it looks to high tech for 2250”

      • The Science Fiction Oracle

        Yea, but the revised movie version from 1979 still looks great and would be fine today if they wanted to use a version of that for the Constitution Class later in DSC.

        What I really hated about all of the Berman-era starships, starting with the D, was the over-use of different tiling shades on the hall. Surely by the 24th century, they can get super-steel hull plates to a spec where they all look alike — it’s silly to look at all of that tiling like that on the D.

        • The TMP so called “refit” was a good redesign and with modern textures would fit fine. I can not seem to make folks understand the TOS connie, from a design point is a model T. She will always look old and super dated, because if the design forms. You can retexture it to the cows come home, it won’t fix it.

          I think the aztec pattern is simply a trek hallmark now. Like it or not.

        • Pedro Ferreira

          D is such an iconic ship, I wouldn’t want it changed in anyway. E on the other hand looks very dull.

      • Mo

        The aesthetic is still viable. But modern, impatient audiences don’t like to see how we get there from here. Everybody expects a Ferrari before seeing how we figured out how to build tanker trucks..

        http://www.starfleet-museum.org

        • The issue is the TOS connie IS 50 uears old. Every single trek design hails from it. No one now days is gonna accept those designs. Like it or not ENT killed the TOS connie

    • Pedro Ferreira

      To be fair it at least looks like a continuation of Archer’s ship.

      • Mo

        That’s the problem, far as I’m concerned.

        • Pedro Ferreira

          But at least they made an effort with some continuity.

          • Mo

            DSC’s design team has worked very hard on this new show, and like the newer movies’ teams, they’ve been tasked with reconciling a lot of conflicting requirements and expectations. I respect that.

            My annoyance with this isn’t new. I had similar issues with the conveniently advanced physical design of Zefram Cochrane’s Phoenix in “First Contact.” Despite that and the bootstrapped time-travel plot, I enjoyed the movie a great deal. I expect I’ll enjoy DSC as well.

          • Pedro Ferreira

            You enjoyed First Contact? Uh-oh… only joking!

          • Mo

            Yeah, the pre-release advertising pretty much kept my expectations in check. 😉

          • Pedro Ferreira

            Yet the actual film had no effect on me. Ha, ha!

  • Pedro Ferreira

    ” though of course given the show’s mid-23rd Century period setting, it’s not impossible that the Walker-class line of ships weren’t used much past that era.” I see what you did there Trekcore.